fred
Apostle of Humility
Reged: Jul 09 2002
Posts: 15
Loc: Indiana
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I just bought a marlin 17v and would like to hear from others that own this rifle. I dont even have a scope on it yet I'm hopeing to have it at the range this weekend. I would like to know what other owners think about this rifle and its performance. I'm going to be useing it for coyote hunting this will the first time ever hunting coyotes for me. and I have been told I got the right rifle for the job.
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S.Frame
Administrative Oracle
Reged: Oct 02 2000
Posts: 2765
Loc: Westerville, Ohio
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C'mon Fred, you've got to be kidding?
I know you know better than to even think that the .17 rimfire is even close to an adequate cartridge for coyotes.
Whoever told you that it is the "right rifle for the job" is an idiot.
I have one, and I'd be glad to discuss it's merits with you, but it is by no stretch a cartridge suitable for anything larger than a big rat.
You wouldn't be trying to stir a little shit now would you?
If you are sincere, you need to do a LOT of reading here.
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Greg H
Druid
Reged: Dec 19 2000
Posts: 109
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Shaun,
Don't hold back on this subject, let us know how you really feel!!
Greg H
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mike c
Druid
Reged: Jan 12 2002
Posts: 103
Loc: medford ,or. jackson
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Yes Shaun inquiring minds want to know!
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Foreman4x4
Disciple
Reged: Oct 19 2000
Posts: 236
Loc: UTAH
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I think your Marlin 17V could really shine on a coyote stand, here's how --
First off, find a spot that's likely to hold a few critters;
Next, check the wind and find a place to sit, preferably in the shade with no snakes, cactus, or other pricklies or biters;
Lastly, unshoulder the Marlin 17V and shove the barrel firmly into the ground. Pull out your favorite call, doesn't much matter whether it's mouth blown or electronic as long as you're comfortable using it, and let out a chorus. When you spy Mr. Wily Coyote coming in, lean your real coyote rifle (.17Rem/.17MKIV/.222/.223/.22-250/.220 Swift or similar caliber) gently across the protruding buttstock of the Marlin, line up the crosshairs, and let the air out of the old songdog.
BTW, I'm just kiddin with you, but in reality the .17HMR just doesn't have what it takes for coyotes. I have a Ruger 77/17 and have shot a bunch of prairie dogs and a few jackrabbits with it, which it's perfectly suited for.
Don't underestimate a coyote's toughness. Even with larger calibers they can travel a long ways off with less than perfect hits. The .17HMR is certainly capable of killing a coyote under ideal conditions and perfect shot placement, but why take the chance at wounding them?
Another part to this is: if you've never called in a coyote, you wouldn't fully understand what happens on a stand. I'm sure you've heard of "Buck-fever" right; well, times it by two. When you get a coyote coming in full-bore with his ears peeled back and his teeth glaring it's enough to rattle the best of us. If you don't get rattled (excited) a bit, you sure have calmer nerves than I.
[This message has been edited by Foreman4x4 (edited 07-10-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Foreman4x4 (edited 07-10-2002).]
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fred
Apostle of Humility
Reged: Jul 09 2002
Posts: 15
Loc: Indiana
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I think you all for your truthfullness in the matter of my marlin 17v. I have a few things to add to this subject though. like for instance the marlin model 17v and vs fire a hornady's 17 magnum rimfire catridge at a muzzel velocity of over 2500fps the FASTEST rimfire round ever. this high performance 17 grain V-MAX boat tail jacketed bullet at 50 yards destroyed a rabbit. there was nothing left but a head and the hind feet. it has a grouping at 100 yards no more than 0.5 inches from center it drops less then a 22 hornet, or magnum, or a 223, or even a 22-250 at 100 yards and at 200 hundred yards is still flater than and other rifle on the market right now. I know some of you are saying sure but what about the long rang shot? well this is Indiana there are no long shots and besides that Im not out for a long shot record im out to kill a coyote. I have fired 223's and 22-250's and even much larger caliber rifle's befor hell I hunt deer with a inline 50 caliber CVA. I have shot out to 1100 meters with a 7.62 before and at that range I can hit a target the size of a softball, after some sighting in is performed. but again this is Indiana and I think this little high performance wonder that is the marlin 17v is out to amaze a lot of people. thats is just my thought on it based on what I have seen and read so far but this rifle and its bullets are designed to perform past their small stature.
[This message has been edited by fred (edited 07-10-2002).]
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John-Henry
King Hell Dictator
Reged: Sep 25 2000
Posts: 4429
Loc: McNeal, AZ
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Fred:
Your little high-performance wonder is a squirrel rifle.
Period.
Where do you think you are, anyhow?
This is the foremost Discussion Board on the 'Net when it comes to .17's, and I can promise you that the HMR is a little milk-toothed pup compared to a real centerfire .17.
Hell, it won't hold a candle to a .17 Ackley Hornet, and Vic Carlson will tell you everything that you want to know about what that round will (and more to the point won't) do on a coyote.
Vic, by the way, is the guy in the picture above, in addition to being the guy that's killed a couple of hundred coyotes with various .17's.
Knocking the big middle out of cottontails with highly frangible bullets and killing a coyote are two different things, my friend.
Leave your mouse gun for mice, and get a real .17 if you want to shoot something like a coyote with one.
John-Henry
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S.Frame
Administrative Oracle
Reged: Oct 02 2000
Posts: 2765
Loc: Westerville, Ohio
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Freddy, answer the following questions correctly and I will send you a $25 dollar gift certificate to Midway:
1. What is the size of the current world record group at 1,000 yards?
2. What is the diameter of a softball?
3. What cartridge was used to set the record?
4. Assuming a 50 yard zero, briefly describe the trajectory of the following rounds at 50-yard intervals starting at 25 yards and ending at 200.
A. .17HMR
B. .22 hornet
C. .223
D. .22-250
5. Name one centerfire .22 caliber cartridge that does NOT have a flatter trajectory than the .17 HMR
6. Why don’t the laws of physics and common sense apply to Indiana?
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TomT
Arch Deacon
Reged: Sep 28 2000
Posts: 615
Loc: Mayer, AZ, USA
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Seeing is believing for lots of folks...which is why history is foolishly repeated time and again. When you get sound advice from many authorities and still have to screw around and "try it", you're not only wearing the dunce cap for history class, you've got some retarded sense of ego that will probably get yourself or someone else in trouble. It's an intelligent man that can take sound advice to heart.
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fred
Apostle of Humility
Reged: Jul 09 2002
Posts: 15
Loc: Indiana
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I appreciate you guy's honesty thanks. you keep putting down my 17 HMR out of meaness I think. so its little big deal it has alot of punch. and its the answer to long range low recoil low noise hunting. and I can give evidence of this. but first things first by the way the new 1000 yard percision shot world champion is bill schrader on march 24, 2002 bill schrader set a NBRSA world record in light gun 1000 yard benchrest at calorado rifle club also beating the current IBS record. five shot group - 1.473" with a 300 win mag tight neck a leupold mk4 the rifle was gunsmithed by dan dowling he also used h1000 powder, remington action, mcmillan stock, hart barrel, and a berger 210 vld. know on to something else for a sec. as far as the ceterfires go the .17 HMR is not a center fire its a rem fire but you knew that already. the centerfires in .22 caliber dont perform much better than the .17 HMR does at ranges up to 250 yards they just have alot more noise and alot more recoil. the muzzle velocity of the .17 HMR being as such
0yrds 2550fps, 50yrds 2212fps, 100yrds 1902fps, 150yrds 1621fps, 200yrds 1380fps, for as small of a round as this is thats amazing I dont care who you are you must agree. further more the .17 HMR zeroed in at 175yrds performs like this in trajectory. 50yrds 1.59in, 100yrds 2.88in, 175yrds 0.0in, 250yrds -4.8in, you got to admit thats not bad at all thats a whole lot better then the .22wmr which has been the king of rimfires for over 40 years. also a key performance component of the new .17 HMR is a fast bullet expansion and rapid energy transfer more so than a typical .22wmr hollow-point bullet and also the .17HMR remains substantially super sonic at 200yrds. like I had said before the .17 HMR produces over 2500fps muzzle volocity and initial energy of 250ft lbs all this together means that coyotes weither you want to believe it or not out too 250 yrds are going to just drop in there tracks DEAD!. oh and by the way number 6). why dont the laws of physis and common sense apply to Indiana. well thats a tought one the only answer I can give to you sir is that we are hoosier's and we dont do things the same as everyone else does. honestly though I do appreciate you taking the time to responed to me. and I respect the fact that you have many years of knowledge and experience to impart on us beginers with coyotes. but isnt it just possible that you can teach and old dog a new trick? again thank you for your time.
[This message has been edited by fred (edited 07-10-2002).]
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fred
Apostle of Humility
Reged: Jul 09 2002
Posts: 15
Loc: Indiana
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oh and a big P.S.
the .17 hornady magnum rimfire has 24% higher retained velocity, 55% flatter mid-range trajectory and 33% less wind drift at 200yrds than the .22 wmr cartridge.
just for GP.
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Daryl
Flying Missionary Positioner
Reged: Apr 17 2002
Posts: 1412
Loc: Sierra Vista, Az
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A couple of things you don't understand Fred. First, most here also know that the .22 mag is a piece of shit for hunting coyotes too, so your comparison of the two fails to impress.
You admit you're a beginner at killing coyotes, yet you sit there and talk like you know more than those who have been at it for years. These guys aren't talking to be mean, they are stating facts. If you don't know this, you will soon enough.
Don't try to make facts out of your opinions here Fred. You can tell us how fast and how flat your squirrel rifle shoots, but the fact is it just ain't all that impressive, and saying that the .22 centerfires don't perform that much better is pure foolishness.
.17 HMR from your list (17 gr bullet):
50yrds 2212fps, trajectory +1.59", energy=250 ft lbs at the muzzle
100yrds 1902fps, trajectory +2.88"
150yrds 1621fps
200yrds 1380fps, trajectory zeroes at 175 yards and is -4.8" at 250 yards.
.223 (50 gr bullet):
0 yards: 3400 fps, 1280 ft lbs energy.
100 yards: 2936 fps, 957 ft lbs energy, +1.3"
200 yards: 2517 fps, 703 ft lbs energy. 0.0"
300 yards: 2135 fps, 506 ft lbs energy, -6.8"
Your squirrel rifle is 2.88" high at 100 yards and zero's at 175 where the .223 is only 1.3" high at a hundred yards and zero's at 200 so your rifle isn't the flattest of all as you stated above, and the .223 is certainly no long range coyote round. I consider 250-300 yards to be the max for it for coyotes, as do most who know what they are talking about. And yes, I hunt with one.
The energy level of the .223 w/ 50 grain bullets is the same at 500 yards as your squirrel rifle is at the muzzle, so you saying that the .22 centerfires don't perform much better is bull shit.
Yes, the trajectory of the .17 HMR is impressive for a rimfire rifle, but the fact remains that rimfires suck for hunting coyotes because none of them have enough punch to kill coyotes dependably.
Now, don't take my word for it. Go see for yourself. Just don't expect us to believe a bunch of bullshit when/if you come back.
Who was it that said there's the one who can learn from observation, the few who can learn from studying, and all the rest that have to piss on the electric fence for themselves??
Daryl
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CRhodes
Dervish
Reged: Jan 21 2001
Posts: 69
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I thought for a minute Fred was a pretty sharp guy, then I did a quick search.
http://www.crci.org/News.htm
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Tackdriver
Big Hairy Gun Nut
Reged: Jan 31 2001
Posts: 2340
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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Shaun,
This thread is the living embodiment of what we talked about on the phone the other night, when I said the Rimmy round would invigorate 17 cal sales., and you stated that a lot of un-knowing hunters would use it on coyotes.
Happily, I was correct,
Sadly, so were you.
Fred, what can I say. Now I am NOT being mean. Merely direct. We, on this board, knew about the 17 Rimmy, and its capabilities before it was made public. Documented in the Archives, if you want to search.
Quit trying to shoot coyotes with the 17 Rimmy, and go get yourself a real rifle. You owe the creature a quick, painless trip to the hearafter.
Dont feel defensive if your purchasing decision doesn't measure up in light of empiracle evidence to the contrary. We've all made them. Roy Weatherby said "Velocity Kills". You dont have it in the Rimmy. Plain and simple.
Lets be honest. A 17 caliber bullet going at African Rifle velocities is kinda like taking a shower in a raincoat.
By all means, use your Rimmy on teeny critters, withing the confines of your states game laws. Plink waterbottles, cans, what not, and have a generally good time. But when on the calling stand, get yourself a REAL 17 RIFLE, there are a lot of options here. And be glad you live in a country where owning more than one rifle due to a ill advised buying decision is allowed.
Its not going to be so terrible to own another rifle is it? 
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Safety, Ethics, Accuracy, Velocity, Energy.
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Seek
Disciple
Reged: Dec 30 2001
Posts: 214
Loc: S-Central NC, USA
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Fred
I was gonna stay out of this but I just can't stand it. 
[QUOTE]I would like to know what other owners think about this rifle and its performance.[/QUOTE]
Well, they just told ya' and you refuse to accept their responses. lol
[QUOTE]I'm going to be useing it for coyote hunting this will the first time ever hunting coyotes for me. and I have been told I got the right rifle for the job.[/QUOTE]
You were told wrong.
You ask...they answer...you refuse to accept the truth.
Then why ask?
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Buster
Dervish
Reged: Jun 06 2002
Posts: 43
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I too, was going to stay out of this because initially I thought I was in the humorous section of the forum. Then it went serious.
I walked into a gun store looking for a .17 Rem and the guy behind the counter gave me the Ruger 17 Rimfire and began to tell me stories of how they kill coyotes and the people who have shot them. Amazingly enough, people do shoot coyotes with the rifle. One gent was behind me who had shot a few, all within 100 yards. He was a proud sole. Then I asked him how far he tracked them and how many he found and his face grew very dim. Not only did he let the coyote suffer an agonizing death, I am sure there are pups out there going through the same agonization. Enough said. I bought the .17 Rem Centerfire.
By the way, thank you for finally bringing up the whole energy concept with the bullet, I about died waiting for it to come to light.
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fred
Apostle of Humility
Reged: Jul 09 2002
Posts: 15
Loc: Indiana
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again I think you all for you honesty. I am listening to you really I am. Its just I feel a little let down by the info being imparted on me. no one wants to hear they bought a peice of shit for the wrong reason. I know that a 17 ackley hornet or a 17-223 wildcat has alot more punch and has alot more range. but i dont have the money to buy a modle 700 or some such beast and have the smithy work done on it. and yes a 223 is a superior round I just wanted to know how you really felt you know, dont hold back or anything. im looking into either a 17 ah or maybe a 17-223 if I can find one already done over or even a 223 now. and yes I did reserch the question of the world record holder. but not many people would know that by heart, and im one of them. I am sincer when I say I do appreciate your expertes in this matter, as I am new at coyote hunting. I have hunted just about everything else indiana has to offer and thought I would try this. know the problem is if I find a good rifle selling my 17HMR so I can afford it. buisness is a little slow right now and does not afford me much lee way so to speak. my local gun store is looking into a few things for me like I said though. and I will remain on the coyote gods forum for as long as I can I like the info and expert opinons. I was not bulling you when I said I have fired long range before that was true. but indiana is a weird creature as far as available space. every fool and his uncle keeps buying up land and building houseing comunities on it makeing it harder to find a decent rang over 100 yrds or even a place in the wild to shot that far its getting redicules. dont get me wrong there are still a few places like that here but they are in demand. I have seriously been thinking about entering some black powder competitoins here in Indiana as well and maybe some day I will. but for know I will work on finding those coyotes and bringing them down with the right equipment.
again thank you fred.
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Foreman4x4
Disciple
Reged: Oct 19 2000
Posts: 236
Loc: UTAH
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Fred, first off; I get the impression you aren't really looking for other's opinions, rather you're looking to justify your own opinions, as it seems they're pretty well set in stone. There's certainly nothing wrong with having an opinion, just don't ask other's for theirs, and then ignore the information and experience offered. I also partly think you're simply on a fishing expedition or trying to ruffle a few feathers.
Anyway, if you are serious about calling and killing a few coyotes as humanely as possible, a great calling rifle can be had for right a round $150.00. Take a look at the NEF Handi-rifles. They're single-shot, but if you do your part it shouldn't matter much. In the Coyote-God's video, John-Henry explains how he has used a single shot (TC Contender carbine If I remember correctly)to harvest more coyotes than you or I are likley to see in a lifetime.
I completely understand being on a budget, but that doesn't make up for the reality that the .17HMR is not suited for coyotes.
If you care to do a little experiment with your own .17HMR, or you could simply do a search on this board for S. Frames pictures, fill a plastic water bottle and give it a go with the .17HMR. That little 17gr bullet will blow the hell out of the front of the bottle, but you're not likely to have anything left of the bullet but dust or maybe the polymer tip will be intact, but it won't fully penetrate the plastic.
Again, don't get me wrong, I love the .17HMR. In fact, it's currently my favorite rifle to shoot. I love being able to watch the hits through the scope and it does wonders on jackrabbits and prairie dogs, but that's about all I'd even think about shooting with it.
Let me put it this way; I also shoot a .17 Remington, which could launch the 20gr Hornady V-Max at roughly 4200fps, and I wouldn't even shoot a coyote with this combination because the bullet is simply to frangible. I like killing coyotes alot more than I like tracking wounded ones. In my opinion, the 25gr H.P. is the ideal bullet weight for coyotes out of .17 caliber rifles.
[This message has been edited by Foreman4x4 (edited 07-11-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Foreman4x4 (edited 07-11-2002).]
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fred
Apostle of Humility
Reged: Jul 09 2002
Posts: 15
Loc: Indiana
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thanks you foreman4X4 I appreciate you time and your knowledge.
fred
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fred
Apostle of Humility
Reged: Jul 09 2002
Posts: 15
Loc: Indiana
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just out of curiosity how does everyone feel about the savage 110fp tactical?
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CRhodes
Dervish
Reged: Jan 21 2001
Posts: 69
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Savage is making some one of the most accurate production guns out there. The only drawback it may have is the 1:9 twist rate.
Since the rifle appears to be geared towards law enforcement it make sense to have a twist rate for heavier bullets.
[This message has been edited by CRhodes (edited 07-11-2002).]
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Tackdriver
Big Hairy Gun Nut
Reged: Jan 31 2001
Posts: 2340
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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Well Fred
Since you brought up the 110, let me enlighten you a little about the Savage rifles, and your forthcoming small caliber career.
You are starting to head in the right direction. You see, the Savage rifles allow the end consumer to haul off the barrel and screw another on there. All you need is a FL sized cartridge. And maybe a special wrench, but there is even a way around that. And a homemade barrel vise.
So go get the most basic, cheapest, Savage 11x rifle you can find, and then go buy a 17 Rem barrel from either www.midwayusa.com, [149 bucks] or Sharp Shooter Supply. SSS also makes a 17 Mach 4 barrel.
Ok, now you have a cheap 17 cal repeater, and you are off and running. Later, as money permits, you can add a better grade of stock, a better trigger, or you can even home-smith the factory one pretty decently.
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Safety, Ethics, Accuracy, Velocity, Energy.
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Brice
Dervish
Reged: Sep 15 2001
Posts: 50
Loc: Hereford, Texas, United States
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I just recently ordered a 10FP in .223 and was wondering about the twist rate. Savage is just about the only rifle maker i've seen that carries a 1 in 9" twist on the .223. Will this twist be an advantage for 55 gr. bullets or will i have to look to a heavier bullet to get the most out of this rifle???
Thanx a bunch.
Brice
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S.Frame
Administrative Oracle
Reged: Oct 02 2000
Posts: 2765
Loc: Westerville, Ohio
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Brice, the 9" twist is very popular nowadays and is available from a wide variety of Manufacturers, Browning, Winchester, Colt, DPMS, bushmaster, and on and on.
It should shoot bullets from 45 to 69 grains without any problems at all.
My impression is that the best accuracy comes from the middle of this range. 50's, 52's, 53's, and 55's, but your results may vary.
You might have a problem with premature blow-up using very frangible bullets like the speer TNT, or the Sierra Blitz, but so far this has never happened to me with a 9" twist at .223 speeds.
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fred
Apostle of Humility
Reged: Jul 09 2002
Posts: 15
Loc: Indiana
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I think you for the info on the savage. I have always kind of like them, and had beed thinking about one even before I bought the .17 hmr. I know .223 is a good caliber but what about the .308. is that too much or is it just on the outside of the range for a good varmint rifle. some input would be nice. my local gun store has one in a .308 with bypod and scope for about $450. its the tactical with the heavy barrel. though im not sure they make that modle any other way but that one?. but even at that rate if what you say is true I could just as easily change the barrel out anyway.
thanks again for your input.
fred
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Brice
Dervish
Reged: Sep 15 2001
Posts: 50
Loc: Hereford, Texas, United States
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Fred, if you're concerned about keeping the hides in tact than the .308 would not be a good choice. It would be a great coyote/medium game rifle though. For long range coyote shooting, it is also a great choice. I have just ordered a Savage Tactic in .223. I'm hoping to see just how it performs. Personally, i don't see anything wrong with the .223 rem. The factory loads are dirt cheap and it is much easier to handload for than a .17 rem. or 17 ah. The .223 would be my #1 choice for all around coyote hunting.
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fred
Apostle of Humility
Reged: Jul 09 2002
Posts: 15
Loc: Indiana
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thank you brice for your response to my question. I would like to keep the pelts in tack for the most part. but there are some times in my buisness that, that does not matter to much. but you have given me something to think about, for that time of the year when the pelts are in good shape for harvesting.
thanks again
fred
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yehti
Flying Missionary Positioner
Reged: Jun 28 2002
Posts: 1033
Loc: **************
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Fred.
I have stood back watching the show. One would almost have to pay for entertainment of this kind. We have staggered from one extreme to another, Air rifle to a tank. A range of opinions have been expressed and mine is just another.
Find someone who actually does lots and lots of this kind of shooting and see what they use. (Take note of the posts of John Henry and others). Ask if it is possible to go out with them and see what they do in the field.
BEWARE of people selling things that THEY SAY you need and are the dogs-B---ks. CHECK IT OUT FIRST. (buy in haste repent at leisure)
I help a full time gamekeeper on red fox CONTROL and our team (driver, lampman, shooter) account for about 250 head per season. We use .222 and .223 with ranges from 25yds to 250yds.(far enough).
Another point I would like to put across is Think "why do we shoot animals"? "Wildlife is not ours to dispose of as we will. We hold it it trust for future generations to enjoy as they will".
"one shot - one kill". Enjoy your shooting.
JcR (yehti)
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POKERPLAYER
Dervish
Reged: Mar 23 2002
Posts: 35
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Buy a used ADL, buy a used 17 rem Barrel have it rechambered to MKIV shoot 20gr V-Max, Down load to 2500 fps or max it out to 4200 fps
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Dallas
Dervish
Reged: Jun 01 2002
Posts: 32
Loc: Lisbon Ohio USA
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Will a 17 mk-IV shoot a 20 gr V-Max at 4200 fps ? What powder primer combo ? My 17-222 will . Thought the 17 mk-IV to be a little slower ...Dallas...P.S. I'll have a 17HRM soon as i get around to sending off my NEF 22 magnum, $6o with a trigger job included .Can't beat that...OH NO... ANOTHER NEF FAN...RUN...
------------------
Gotta Have It
[This message has been edited by Dallas (edited 07-13-2002).]
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S.Frame
Administrative Oracle
Reged: Oct 02 2000
Posts: 2765
Loc: Westerville, Ohio
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Dallas, 21.3grs of H-335, rem 71/2 in fire formed brass gave me 4,270 fps with no untoward pressure signs.
20.2 grs with the same primer and a 22gr Berger fbhp averages 4,000fps out of the 21.75" barrel of my cz.
It IS a very efficient little cartridge.
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POKERPLAYER
Dervish
Reged: Mar 23 2002
Posts: 35
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I use 332 and BR primers, I figure this cartrige is about 200fps slower than Max 223Rem, But you can load this one down near sub-sonic as well, I have just started with 335 and have not chrono loads yet
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Brice
Dervish
Reged: Sep 15 2001
Posts: 50
Loc: Hereford, Texas, United States
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.223 55 gr. FMJ'S for coyotes??? These bulets are so cheap and i like that about them. But im not sure if they would be an adequate coyote round. Using FMJ's, would i have to look to a bigger caliber for clean kills out to about 300 yds. Thanx a bunch.
Brice
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fred
Apostle of Humility
Reged: Jul 09 2002
Posts: 15
Loc: Indiana
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brice
the us army and the marines both use the M16. which fires a .223 round 5.56mm and they get kills on human tagets out to 500 meters and even more, those rounds are FMJ's. I dont think there is any difference in that round and a .223 round you would buy in your local gun store. I my self have hit targets out to 500 meters with the M16. and I would think if you would hand load .223 rounds yourself you could even push that number.
fred
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