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Cal Taylor
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Dorn Pups
      #108361 - Sat Jul 03 2004 04:21 PM

Here are a couple of Dorn pups that I just got. These dogs are probably as close up as you can get anymore. Their grandmother was owned by Vern himself. http://photos.imageevent.com/caltaylor/hunting/websize/Blue.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/caltaylor/hunting/websize/Lucy.jpg

[This message has been edited by Cal Taylor (edited 07-03-2004).]


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flatlander
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541197 - Mon Jul 05 2004 11:13 AM

Where did you get them Cal? Does O’Gorman keep the line going the way he should? In 98 he showed up at the Nebraska Fur harvesters annual convention with what looked to me like a full-blooded Airedale.

Good hunting.

flatlander


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Moon DogAdministrator
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541198 - Mon Jul 05 2004 11:30 AM

That was because all serious attempts at developing the ultimate coyote dog ALWAYS ends up with an Airedale. Very Simple.

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Bob Mc
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541199 - Mon Jul 05 2004 12:06 PM

I correspond with a fellow now and then who got himself a Dorn pup a couple of months ago. He keeps comparing it to an Airedale. I told him, “But your dog isn’t an Airedale”. He says. “Yeah, but it has Airedale in it”. I said, “ And it also has Mt Cur, shepherd, Irish terrier and who knows what else. In other words, a mutt”!

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Stormin
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541200 - Mon Jul 05 2004 01:32 PM

Mutts are good dogs as well.... many of us humans are mutts.....

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flatlander
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541201 - Mon Jul 05 2004 01:41 PM

Moon Dog, Vern Dorn spent his life denning coyotes and developing his own line of coyote dogs. Even into his 70s he was killing 400 coyotes a year with them. They may be just a bunch of “mutts” in your eyes but a good Dorn dog is as good as they come for dening and decoying.

Good hunting.

flatlander


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Moon DogAdministrator
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541202 - Mon Jul 05 2004 01:58 PM

Duh!

Isn't that what I said? And you saw the ultimate outcome of his efforts and expertise at the 98 Nebraska Fur Harvesters Convention.

An Airedale! He was a huge success.

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flatlander
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541203 - Mon Jul 05 2004 03:27 PM

All I know about that dog was that it was a young dog and it “looked” like an Airedale. For all I knew it could have been worthless and he ended up shooting it? That’s why I ask. It also should be noted that the best dog that O’Gorman ever had “pup” was a Dorn dog. A mutt.

It is good to know that O’Gormans Airedale was a huge success. Were you a student of O’Gormans? What did he name the dog and where did he get it? Sorry for all the questions. LOL

Thanks.

flatlander


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Bob Mc
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541204 - Mon Jul 05 2004 03:59 PM

I didn’t say mutts can’t be good dogs. I just had one die at the ripe old age of 16 & ½ years. He must have done something right to earn his grub around here for that long!

What I did infer was, don’t compare a mutt to an Airedale (or any other breed) because it has some of that blood in it. A mutt is a mutt; good or bad. Trying to hold onto the good points in a breeding program is a monumental task! It’s a lot easier (I didn’t say easy) if you start with a breed suited to the task in the first place.


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Cal Taylor
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541205 - Mon Jul 05 2004 04:10 PM

A Wyoming trapper that had worked for Vern got these pups' mother and father from Vernon as pups. They later ended up with a friend of mine and the female mistakenly got bred to a hound so he had the vet give it the shot that causes them to sluff the pups. Apparently as a result, she never came back into heat for several years. She has quite a little age now, but did come in this winter, took and had 5 pups. I feel fortunate to get one. The other one here belongs to another county trapper, but we are keeping them together for a while because neither of us wanted to keep a single lonesome whining pup. I'm not here to get into the airedale fight, I don't care what you guys use for dogs. I use what works for me. I know these dogs have some airedale in them and the other major was walker hound plus various others that were mentioned. I would venture a guess that Dorn dogs have been resposible for the deaths of far more coyotes than straight airedales, but I wouldn't have any way of proving or disproving that theory. These dogs were bred to hunt coyotes, not anything else, and like ALL dogs some were good, some mediocre, and I'm sure many were shot. Thats another thing that I like about the Dorns as a general. Most of them were in the hands of guys that wouldn't tolerate a poor dog, and were weeded out. Many of the "other" breeds have become more show dog type and the poor hunters weren't gotten rid of.

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Ken (Catskin)Administrator
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541206 - Mon Jul 05 2004 05:34 PM

Ain't that the god damm truth. Good luck with those pups, I hope they'll turn out, they should be a good size to start next spring eh?

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Bob Mc
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541207 - Mon Jul 05 2004 06:52 PM

Cal, I’m not here to uphold for the Airedale to the exclusion of all other breeds. Far from it! And I’m not a coyote man. I’ve stated that emphatically on this board many times. I just don’t see the point in trying to develop a breed when others already exist that can do the job. It's kind of like reinventing the wheel. It can be done, but why?

John-Henry favors Airedales for tolling/den dogs. Tom T has some Jack Russell Terriers that are apparently doing a bang up job for him. Many professional coyote men say the Mountain Cur is tops, and there is at least one who uses Jagd Terriers.

Vern Dorn may have developed a line of dogs that were good at the job. I’ve never personally seen one; and yeah, I’ll bet quite a few bit the bullet along the way. But I’ll bet he would have had an easier time of it if he had picked a breed that was already breeding true to form and went from there!

[This message has been edited by Bob Mc (edited 07-05-2004).]


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Cal Taylor
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541208 - Mon Jul 05 2004 07:10 PM

Bob, I'm pretty sure that Mr. Dorn had quite a little more experience hunting coyotes than John Henry and Tom T and apparently he didn't think that there was a single breed out there that had the traits he desired in a coyote dog. I'm sure that at one time he had tried airedales and from what I have read he didn't like most of them, and he didn't like straight hounds either so the crossing began. But don't take that the wrong way, I have seen airedales work for coyotes, but most are too much dog. They generally run more coyotes off than anything, unless they are tied at the stand. The curs do work well and I am lucky enough to have a good one right now. As far as JRT's the guys that I know that have tried them spent lots of money at the vet getting them fixed. I wouldn't want to try them here. If I'm not mistaken most breeds came from crossing something with something else to get desired traits. That is all we are talking about. Where did the airedale start? Surely it was a crossbred somewhere down the line?

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Cal Taylor
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541209 - Mon Jul 05 2004 07:29 PM

Actually, quoting "Hoofbeats of a Wolfer". What Vernon had said was that "he had tried airedales and they were too agressive and too dumb". It also said that he had 50,000 coyotes worth of experience.

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oneshotdead
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541210 - Fri Jul 09 2004 10:06 AM

Those are good looking pups Cal. I see you are from Gillette. Just hunted with Merv G. about 3 weeks ago and his mountain curs. Got some good footage with him and Don L. I am assuming you know Merv? Read all the responses on this and it seems to me alot of people here get hung up on the "best" dog, rifle, caliber, etc. What a waste of time that is, like arguing politics. Also, I see the name O'Gorman here. I am assuming that is Craig? I come off a ranch north of Broadus and know Craig well. If he says something works than listen up because he is an unreal predator hunter. By the way guys, I use an Australian Shepherd that not only brings cattle to me but coyotes as well. I've seen some really good coyote dogs that double as stock dogs as well. S.

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oneshotdead
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541211 - Fri Jul 09 2004 10:19 AM

The footage I'm speaking of will be on the next ELK coyote video. Some really good footage Merv and Don L. got with the dogs out of Broadus. S.

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Cal Taylor
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541212 - Fri Jul 09 2004 10:51 AM

One Shot,
I sorta know Merv. I've met him a couple times. Never met Don. And yes, I was refering to Craig and his book, Hoofbeats of a Wolfer. I haven't got to go to O'G for instruction but have worked with several of his students here and there, so I've got quite a little of his info second hand.


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John-HenryAdministrator
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541213 - Fri Jul 09 2004 08:44 PM

Wow:

A guy takes a little Sabbatical and misses all sorts of good conversations.



Vern Dorn was a horseback denner, and he ran mated pairs and big pups plumb out of his jurisdiction if he couldn't kill 'em, which meant that he needed (or wanted) a hound-type ground-trailing open dog, because he was working those coyotes like the July hound fellas do back in the Midwest.

And he spent his whole working life in that gigantic open country up North, and tailored his tastes and techniques accordingly, just like anyone does; he refined dogs and techniques that worked for him, and they might or might not work as well somewhere else.

AND he developed his Dorn hounds (and his opinions) in the days before Tritronics made it possible to put a mile-long leash on a dog, which I'm pretty sure is why he thought that the Airedale was too aggressive for his tastes; I can promise you that I could have never made a single one of my Airedales into a tolling dog or a denning dog without an electronic collar with a tone and some fire to back up the "return" command, because an Airedale with blood in it's eye and a coyote in it's sights isn't fixing to return voluntarily until it's too tired to run any more, and that's going to be a fairly long time, which means that the coyote will either just quit the call and leave, or that the bitch will be moving pups in the opposite direction while the Airedale runs the other coyote five miles away.

And as far as the "dumb" part of his observation goes, it doesn't reflect (with all due respect for his accomplishments) well on HIS intelligence; anyone who calls an Airedale "dumb" is too dumb to run an intelligent independent strong-willed terrier, and they ARE better served with a more tractable biddable dog. And that's not really knocking the man so much as pitying him; I know plenty of guys that catch a lot of game with dogs that don't have any real bond or kinship with those dogs, and I know plenty of fellas that have ridden horses just like they do trucks all of their lives. They just don't particularly care to understand an animal, or bond with it; they just want to use it like a tool, and if it doesn't suit them out of the box they get another one, rather than try to mold themselves to it.

I learned a long time ago that it's a waste of time to bad-mouth another man's choice in dogs; if they work for him, and he's happy, it's none of my business anyhow.

And more to the point, a GOOD dog man can make just about any "decent' dog and make a winner; training and empathy and understanding and lots and lots of field time are much more important than blood or raw ability. That's my only quarrel with the idea or concept of the Dorn dog; if anyone purchases a pup with the notion that it'll somehow magically transform into a finished coyote dog because of it's lineage I'm pretty sure that they're sadly mistaken.

Rather than discuss the abilities of the Dorn dog (which I know nothing about, having never hunted with one) I will tell you that Airedales, particularly the slick-coated Mogollon Rim dogs that I've largely worked with in the last several years, have the potential to be great open-country coyote dogs; they've got tremendous range and bottom, they can easily care for themselves when the water gets deep far from the rifle, they can take a lot of heat, which is all good for denning work, they have the terrier tenacity and hunt drive that carries them through when another dog might flat-out quit, and they're smart enough that they can den in the summer and decoy in the winter, which I'm not sure that most dogs can accomplish.

On the minus side, they're almost never open on trail, although they will trail a lot better than most people give them credit for, and they much prefer to range and roam with a high head, rather than snuffle dust like some common old hound.

Let me put it to you this way, Cal; if I can get up to visit with you next summer, and bring a couple of my pairs, you'll be impressed; a dog man loves good working dogs, no matter what the breed, and my Airedales would eat that big open rolling country alive, along with any coyotes in it.

John-Henry


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Cal Taylor
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541214 - Sat Jul 10 2004 05:39 AM

That was a very well put post John Henry. And I did say I have seen some airedales work. I have a friend in Utah that is a state trapper there and he has had airedales for years, although he recently added a cur. But in polite terms he is a dirty mean old S.O.B. and can deliver far more punishment to a dog than I care to. As far as Vern, I have read the same stories about coursing draws with dogs and horseback, but it was stated that it was in his younger years. As far as "chasing" coyotes out of the country, Craig was talking about late season big pups, and the old ones will gather them and run rather than fighting or defending territory, and it starts happening here about the first of August or so and Craig relates stories of trying to get ahead of them to "get the fight started". I have quite a bit of video of Vern and though it is poor quality, you can see his dogs work, and they do. They bring coyotes back for the shot, and work to find den holes and the whole bit. But John Henry you are more than correct on no "magic" dogs. It takes lots of coyotes to make a dog, there is no substitute, and some of them still aren't going to make it. It don't matter what breed or conglomeration of breeds. And if you get headed this way J-H, you are welcome here anytime. I can even sometimes find a coyote to harrass. You can even bring your dogs!

[This message has been edited by Cal Taylor (edited 07-10-2004).]


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John-HenryAdministrator
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541215 - Sat Jul 10 2004 02:43 PM

Cal:

I'm convinced that many different dogs can get the job done; when you get right down to it denning isn't that terribly hard given a few factors going in your favor. If you can glass and find pups piddling around outside of the hole, or a sentinel coyote, or if you can get those pups to howl, or if you've got a den map, either on a chunk of paper or in your head, or a location from a spotter plane, all that you need is an approach angle and a dog that'll range out and away from you, and then return when those old ones drop on him; he really doesn't even have to "hunt" them, so long as he'll run for you when they start to bite his ass, and chase what's left after you start shooting.

I've loaned my copy of "Hoofbeats" to someone or other, so I can't reference it at the moment, but it seems like Dorn and/or O'Gorman mentioned that Border Collies broke down too fast when they were worked hard, Airedales were stubborn/stupid, and hounds wanted to scent-trail too much, among other things.

As I said, I think that there's a lot of other factors to consider; "Dogg'in Coyotes" will leave a novice breathless, but I know several Gov't trappers that just kind of snorted when they saw that video; the country that they work is thick with oak brush and timber, and their opinion was that any old dog will do to den in open country where they can see the coyote(s) coming; they only respected a dog that would wind up and go, or run to a howl, without having any idea where those coyotes were, or how many there were, and with a pretty good idea that he might be heading right into a buzz saw in that tangle somewhere.

Then there's the idea that I've heard again and again from trappers concerning differential aggression; some areas of the country just seem to hold those "long-toothed" aggressive coyotes, and some areas seem to have those "quail-hearted" shy retiring types, and that influences a denner's choice of dogs.

Then there's the more "advanced" techniques; I don't den all that much here in Arizona, so I'm content to use my Airedales and howl to locate when I'm trying to fix a problem, but if I were doing suppressive work I'd be mightily tempted to go to a straight trail hound and systematically work den trails backwards from water; there isn't that much of it in this country, and coyotes have to drink just like most other things (just to take one example).

I've talked to trappers that told me they'd empty dog pounds in denning season; they'd just take any old mutt into an area where they had isolated a den and cut him loose; if he'd dive for those coyotes that was all good; if he didn't work they shot him and went and got another one.

To my mind decoy work is sort of the Doctorate program for coyote dogs; without those pups nearby the coyote doesn't have nearly the imperative and urgency to fool with a dog, and as a result that dog better have a little artistry about it. I personally like a dog with a lot of range and desire; if I were a bird hunter I'd probably run a German Shorthair (unless I decided to train an Airedale for feathers) so that influences my choice of breed, but Tomas gets along handily with his JRT's, and more often than not those dogs are within thirty or so yards of him until a coyote shows up.

Most of the older trappers that I've talked to held the opinion that a dog in the Fall and Winter cost them more coyotes than they were worth, and they just left them home, but I think that's mainly because they had dogs aggressive enough to den, and those dogs didn't change their behavior at other times of the year, with the result that they ran a lot of coyotes off without a shot being fired.

My Athena was a slick-coated female that stood 22" or so at the shoulder and weighed 40-some pounds, and she was a lean leggy running machine with a twitchy darting passive/aggressive style that just drove coyotes wild; she'd twist them into such knots that I think they were relieved when they finally caught a bullet. O'Gorman has written that he thinks that a pale colored smallish bitch dog with a shy attitude is best for decoy work, and an Airedale obviously isn't pale or shy, but The Rat ripped them up down here until she died, and I think that in large measure it was due to the fact that she knew exactly what she was doing; she lived for the crack of that rifle and the sound of that bullet smacking that coyote. And Micky before her, and Lucy and Heather after her; once you get the idea hammered into that thick terrier head those Airedales just seem to glory in playing the game.

And for that matter my biggest male (Mad Max, who stands 25" or so and weighs 60-some lbs) is a pretty fair decoy dog himself; I started him denning in CO as a three-year old, and I flew so much fire out of him getting him to turn and come back that he's pretty diffident in the Wintertime, and he'll barely bump a coyote at all before he's on his way back to the gun. And it works; I'm pretty sure that the size of a dog is less important than the attitude of the dog most of the time, and if a coyote thinks that he's got the bluff in he'll keep right on coming no matter how big the dog is.

One of the few things that I know of sure is that people misunderstand the Airedale on a regular basis; when I got Micky seven years ago I was mightily puzzled; after a year I was pretty well convinced that she was retarded, and it took her all of three years to get me trained to the point where she figured that I was worth hunting with.

They're not for everyone, but I'm sure not sorry that I took the time to understand them; I've had stock dogs and hounds and mastiffs and various other breeds ever since I was born, but I wouldn't trade my Airedales for anything any more for general all-around field work. I guess that I'll own them when I die; I've always been a little on the stubborn side, and their personality seems to suit me get right.



John-Henry


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k9
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541216 - Sat Jul 10 2004 09:30 PM

Friends for life



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John-HenryAdministrator
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541217 - Sun Jul 11 2004 07:55 PM

Hey!

A fellow sufferer; you have my sympathy.



That's a nice-looking Airedale, even if it is kind of hairy; how is that dog bred?

John-Henry


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John-HenryAdministrator
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541218 - Sun Jul 11 2004 08:45 PM

Here are a couple of pictures of one of my pairs; that's a three-year old male and a 15-month old bitch, and they're pretty fair dogs so far.

The second picture was taken the day after I was sitting at the computer and watching the old classic "Pumping Iron;" I didn't realize that the Whooft Head was laying behind me in my LazyBoy and watching with close attention until he started doing this sort of thing whenever he saw a camera.

He's very proud of himself and his body, is the Whift, despite the fact that the little Turk has about three times more blind aggression when her eyes turn red than the big Machine ever thought about.





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John-HenryAdministrator
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541219 - Wed Jul 14 2004 11:19 AM

Jeez:

Did I say something wrong?

This thread was going great guns, and all of a sudden it dried up.

I took the pictured pair with me this morning to look around a little at a spot that supposedly is holding a resident lion; one of my good gentle throughly broken Mexican horses blew up in the trailer for no good reason at 3:00 a.m. and tried to beat his own brains out against the steel, but aside from that it was a nice little ride.

If there IS a lion in there my mad ones blew right past it, but they did find three coyotes, much to the amusement of the fella that I was riding with; he'd never seen coyote dogs work before, and after we climbed down and threw stones at coyotes for a half-hour he was asking me how he could get some of those.

We never did mess around looking for the hole, because before this morning he didn't even realize that he had coyotes for neighbors, but we sure had a lot of fun watching the show.

I'm coming to the conclusion that all I have to do to get into denned coyotes is to leave the camera at home; it seems as though it happens every time.



John-Henry


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Cal Taylor
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541220 - Wed Jul 14 2004 02:59 PM

Been gone denning and hunting and its a hot S.O.B.
But getting back to some of what was said. There are those that go out in some of this wide open country and call with a dog standing around and call it "dogging coyotes." Sometimes, their dog will even go fluff up a coyote a little, but my definition of a true denning/calling dog has some different requirements. I have had to get by with a sorry dog or two here and there, but I have had some good ones too. The good ones will go to a howl, as far as they can hear it, will work multiple coyotes and keep them coming back for repeated kills,(more than one coyote), and will hunt den holes. That is the main ingredients in a good dog for me. This late in the year it's nice to have a dog that will track and kill pups too. Mine will catch a pup if they see it, but they aren't really go getters for running pups all over when its hot. And neither am I but I have been chasing a bunch of big wild pups around for the last couple days. I killed the old ones the first morning, but the pups are not tied to any type of structure ( a hole or a rockpile etc.) and have been a pain. It's been hot and my dogs quit and so did I. I set a bunch of steel at the water hole they are using and left.

[This message has been edited by Cal Taylor (edited 07-14-2004).]


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John-HenryAdministrator
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541221 - Wed Jul 14 2004 07:23 PM



Sometimes that's the best that you can do, isn't it.

At least those pups will get along on grasshoppers and mice and whatnot, even if you don't catch up with them, which it sounds like you're going to do anyhow if that's the only water around.

And what the heck; it beats a desk job, don't it?

John-Henry


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k9
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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541222 - Wed Jul 21 2004 07:13 PM

Sorry JH been working a lot, and not near the computer. Yes I am a fellow sufferer, and love every minute of it. She and I are flat out best buds, hunting or otherwise.

She is out of David Merryman's kennel in Kentucky. His Airedales bring him out here pheasant hunting every fall, and they are some good dogs.

I like the looks of those slick coated dogs, but wouldn't trade my bouncing little girl for nothing.


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Re: Dorn Pups
      #1541223 - Wed Jul 21 2004 07:28 PM

You got that right; once they own you you don't sell or trade or give them away, unless it's to a pretty special person; they're the damnedest dogs that I've ever encountered.

The slickies are interesting, though; that coat is just visible evidence of a whole bunch of hidden genes (kind of like a line-back dun), and I'm very much attracted to those dogs for a lot of reasons.

My (hairy) Micky is still the bestest wisest dog on the place, but given time any one of several of Matt's dogs may surpass her; they've got a formidable set of tools to go along with the universal Airedale personality.

I've heard of Dave's dogs, by the way, although I've never known one personally.

You're a lucky man, no matter how you slice it; it's not every person that gets to share life with an Airedale, and as a result there's a running ton of fellas that are poorer than we are.



John-Henry


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Devin69
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Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 38
Loc: Craig, Colorado
Re: Dorn Pups [Re: John-Henry]
      #1896526 - Wed Jul 01 2009 06:46 PM

Cal How did these pups turn out?

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