Daryl
Flying nun
   
Reged: Apr 17 2002
Posts: 1601
Loc: Sierra Vista, Az
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I read this article in the Arizona daily flush about a jaguar that was captured by G&F while studying the impact of the border fence on mt lions and bears.
It's the first one to ever be collared in the US, from what the article says.
With southern Arizona being the northernmost territory for these cats, I wonder what impact that fence will have on their moving freely back and forth? Those in the US will be here for good, and they're the only ones that'll ever be here, too.
Heckuva thing to do to an endangered species, I reckon.
http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/281034
Daryl
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Hilltop
Bishop
 
Reged: Feb 06 2004
Posts: 777
Loc: Zaitseving coyotes
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Quote: "Heckuva thing to do to an endangered species, I reckon."
Hey Daryl, I think the numbers calculate to somewhere around 'one' jaguar crossing the border per 'one million' law breaking Mexicans.
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Moon Dog
Administrator / Grand Ayatollah
  
Reged: Sep 28 2000
Posts: 1600
Loc: Mc Neal, AZ
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They printed an extensive article in the local rag a few months ago on the subject of Jaquar dispersion North of the border. It seems that a famous local houndsman and rancher had treed two mature jaquars on this side of the border in the last ten years and had photographs and witness's who had recorded the coordinates, to prove that the photos were taken on this side of the border.
According to an Arizona, New Mexican, and Mexican biologist quoted in the article all the cats observed on this side have been young males that have been driven out of the breeding habitat in the Mexican Sierra Madres temporarily and that there is no eveidence of a breeding population on this side. They said that when the males matured and the Mexican males grew old or were killed these youngsters moved South again and took up a territory in which there were breeding populations of females.
I quess the worse that could happen is that more of them would be killed by the dominant males before they reach breeding status but I really believe that an obstacle such as the fence, which, as I'm sure you know is not being built in the most humanly inaccesible mountain areas, will probably not slow them down much since those very remote corridors are the very routes that the immigrating cats use to visit us temporarily.
I would be more worried about the effect on the habitat of the mountains of garbage that the human "immigrants" leave in wilderness areas.
-------------------- Moon Dog
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Hilltop
Bishop
 
Reged: Feb 06 2004
Posts: 777
Loc: Zaitseving coyotes
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Don,
I agree that a disconnected fence probably won't have much effect on the jaguars, or Mexicans for that matter.
The article you mentioned with the biologist guesswork seems just that when you read the associated article link next to the one Daryl posted. It states the captured jaguar, while only 118lbs., was aged at 15 or 16 years old and appeared to be perfectly healthy; along with the fact that this particular animal has been in observance for some years now in the States. I guess now they'll say that the young and the old are pushed out of Mexico by the dominant males, which may be feasible, although one would think the number of cats in Mexico would have to be pretty large, whereas the emblematic 'endangered listing' in the States wouldn't really mean a whole lot.
I was kinda shocked when I read how old that cat was, they stated that it ran for three miles after they released it and then laid up all day. Poor old man was probably having a coronary. Once, while I was in Mexico, hanging around the Nayarit area, a local told me that he and his father hunted Jaguars in the mountains and were fairly successful, you can only imagine how much poaching goes on when it comes to those gorgeous pelts.
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dusty
Dervish
   
Reged: Jul 20 2005
Posts: 422
Loc: AZ
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Quote: "With southern Arizona being the northernmost territory for these cats, I wonder what impact that fence will have on their moving freely back and forth? Those in the US will be here for good, and they're the only ones that'll ever be here, too.
Heckuva thing to do to an endangered species, I reckon."
Daryl, I don't think there's going to be much worry about that fence being a problem. However, they might start considering a possible lead ban in southeast AZ.
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John-Henry
King Hell Dictator
 
Reged: Sep 25 2000
Posts: 4522
Loc: McNeal, AZ
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Dusty:
I don't know what impact that fence may have on the cat, or the cat on the fence; Bush (wielding his Executive Authority under that ridiculous theory of the Unitary Presidency that Congress refused to challenge) authorized Chertoff to ignore any and every law or prohibition or environmental regulation on the books in order to build that fence, but they're both gone (if not forgotten) now, so I'm not sure what the new ground rules might be.
In theory the ESA mandates that things like migration corridors be left open for listed animals that supposedly existed in a given area "historically," although to me that's a pretty broad loop to cast; if something like "Jurassic Park" technology actually becomes feasible does that mean that giant ground sloths and sabre-tooth tigers and mastodons (not to mention buffalo and elk, both of which were present here in the 1800's) are to be granted free passage back and forth?
I can tell you one thing; if the Center for Biologic Diversity didn't file for an injunction to stop construction on that fence the day after that jaguar was announced they're laying down on the job; I recently received a URL to a .pdf filed by somebody called the Wild Earth Guardians, and they're "demanding" that Wildlife Services (the old Animal Damage Control) supplement their 1994/1997 Programmatic Environmental Impact Statement (PEIS) to reflect "significant new circumstances and relevant information."
Take the time and read the demand letter (or pamphlet; it's a damned long "letter.") It is fascinating, though; they include enough facts and assertions that are in all likelihood true to convince most fair-minded people (provided that they don't know the first thing about predation or stock-raising or nuisance wildlife) that in fact Wildlife Services OUGHT to update the PEIS, and in fact it looks to me as though the law may well require that the PEIS be updated, although the last thing on Earth that Wildlife Services wants to do is hold a series of public meetings that are certain to turn into referendums on their very existence.
This is just one example of the current favored strategy of lots of NGO's (non-Governmental Organizations) to advance their goals; they merely use existing law to leverage Governmental entities into action, when the preferred action of any Governmental entity is NO action if they can possibly help it; go along and get along is the watchword of any bureaucrat, because the less that they accomplish the less there is to criticize, and collectively their main goal is to make it through 25 or 30 or 35 years so that they can lounge in the shade of the Eagle's wing for the rest of their lives.
It's actually kind of comical; David and Goliath is becoming a more and more apt metaphor for these interactions, with all of these little old outfits that have a storefront office and a P.O. Box tying up a giant, albeit largely dysfunctional, Government, and using the ropes that the Government themselves made to do it.
What I see from a selfish perspective is a looming ban on the use of dogs for lion and bear along the border, so as to preclude the possibility of a "taking" where a jaguar is concerned, and that, needless to say, would put a hell of a crimp in my tail.
We'll see, though; if in fact they do complete a meaningful section of fencing along the border it won't do diddly squat to prevent illegal migration of human beings or cross-border commerce in illegal and illicit substances and materials, but it will in all likelihood negatively impact the movements of large animals, although I would imagine if a jaguar took a notion to scale the border fence it wouldn't be much of a job for him.
The Mexican grey wolves and the buffalo might be out of luck, though.
John-Henry
-------------------- Tin andra, tin eroa, tina theon?
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Hilltop
Bishop
 
Reged: Feb 06 2004
Posts: 777
Loc: Zaitseving coyotes
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Here's some of the good stuff from Teddy Roosevelt's jaguar hunt on the Taquary.
" The jaguar is the king of South American game, ranking on an equality with the noblest beasts of the chase of North America, and behind only the huge and fierce creatures which stand at the head of the big game of Africa and Asia. This one was an adult female. It was heavier and more powerful than a full-grown male cougar, or African panther or leopard. It was a big, powerfully built creature, giving the same effect of strength that a tiger or lion does, and that the lithe leopards and pumas do not. Its flesh, by the way, proved good eating, when we had it for supper, although it was not cooked in the way it ought to have been. I tried it because I had found cougars such good eating; I have always regretted that in Africa I did not try lion’s flesh, which I am sure must be excellent. 20 Next day came Kermit’s turn. We had the miscellaneous pack with us, all much enjoying themselves; but, although they could help in a jaguar-hunt to the extent of giving tongue and following the chase for half a mile, cowing the quarry by their clamor, they were not sufficiently stanch to be of use if there was any difficulty in the hunt. The only two dogs we could trust were the two borrowed jaguar hounds. This was the black dog’s day. About ten in the morning we came to a long, deep, winding bayou. On the opposite bank stood a capybara, looking like a blunt-nosed pig, its wet hide shining black. I killed it, and it slid into the water. Then I found that the bayou extended for a mile or two in each direction, and the two hunter-guides said they did not wish to swim across for fear of the piranhas. Just at this moment we came across fresh jaguar tracks. It was hot, we had been travelling for five hours, and the dogs were much exhausted. The black hound in particular was nearly done up, for he had been led in a leash by one of the horsemen. He lay flat on the ground, panting, unable to catch the scent. Kermit threw water over him, and when he was thoroughly drenched and freshened, thrust his nose into the jaguar’s footprints. The game old hound at once and eagerly responded. As he snuffed the scent he challenged loudly, while still lying down. Then he staggered to his feet and started on the trail, going stronger with every leap. Evidently the big cat was not far distant. Soon we found where it had swum across the bayou. Piranhas or no piranhas, we now intended to get across; and we tried to force our horses in at what seemed a likely spot. The matted growth of water-plants, with their leathery, slippery stems, formed an unpleasant barrier, as the water was swimming-deep for the horses. The latter were very unwilling to attempt the passage. Kermit finally forced his horse through the tangled mass, swimming, plunging, and struggling. He left a lane of clear water, through which we swam after him. The dogs splashed and swam behind us. On the other bank they struck the fresh trail and followed it at a run. It led into a long belt of timber, chiefly composed of low-growing nacur&ygrave; palms, with long, drooping, many-fronded branches. In silhouette they suggest coarse bamboos; the nuts hang in big clusters and look like bunches of small, unripe bananas. Among the lower palms were scattered some big ordinary trees. We cantered along outside the timber belt, listening to the dogs within; and in a moment a burst of yelling clamor from the pack told that the jaguar was afoot. These few minutes are the really exciting moments in the chase, with hounds, of any big cat that will tree. The furious baying of the pack, the shouts and cheers of encouragement from the galloping horsemen, the wilderness surroundings, the knowledge of what the quarry is—all combine to make the moment one of fierce and thrilling excitement. Besides, in this case there was the possibility the jaguar might come to bay on the ground, in which event there would be a slight element of risk, as it might need straight shooting to stop a charge. However, about as soon as the long-drawn howling and eager yelping showed that the jaguar had been overtaken, we saw him, a huge male, up in the branches of a great fig-tree. A bullet behind the shoulder, from Kermit’s 405 Winchester, brought him dead to the ground. He was heavier than the very big male horse-killing cougar I shot in Colorado, whose skull Hart Merriam reported as the biggest he had ever seen; he was very nearly double the weight of any of the male African leopards we shot; he was nearly or quite the weight of the smallest of the adult African lionesses we shot while in Africa. He had the big bones, the stout frame, and the heavy muscular build of a small lion; he was not lithe and slender and long like a cougar or leopard; the tail, as with all jaguars, was short, while the girth of the body was great; his coat was beautiful, with a satiny gloss, and the dark-brown spots on the gold of his back, head, and sides were hardly as conspicuous as the black of the equally well-marked spots against his white belly. "
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NcWhitetail
Whirling Dervish
Reged: Jan 22 2007
Posts: 49
Loc: Lincolnton, NC
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Hilltop, Where may one find and obtain writing such as you have posted herewithin.? As I would very much like to obtain some simular writings.
Are these the writings of "Mr. Teddy", or,,,,, do they originate from some other source? Thanks a million, Don
PS. These writings are so eloquent and discriptive I simply must obtiain and read more of the same.
Edited by NcWhitetail (Sat Feb 28 2009 04:57 PM)
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Tackdriver
Big Hairy Gun Nut
  
Reged: Jan 31 2001
Posts: 2394
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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Speaking of the fence, Mark took a pic of me standing in front of it. I was kinda hoping to see it posted.....
-------------------- I never saw a wild thing feel sorry for itself.--DH Lawerence
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John-Henry
King Hell Dictator
 
Reged: Sep 25 2000
Posts: 4522
Loc: McNeal, AZ
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This ought to do you for a start; I posted this same link a year or two ago when I first stumbled across it, and I was as fascinated as you are.
Selected writings from Theodore Roosevelt
Try "Through the Brazilian Wilderness," first; it's almost impossible to imagine any of our "modern" politicians undergoing something like that, but I've always thought that if in fact they did it might influence their characters in other ways that would be positive for the electorate.
I was particularly amused by Teddy's tendency to follow in the footsteps of John J. Audubon when it came to being a practicing naturalist; whenever he saw a previously unknown species he promptly shot it so that he could observe it in detail, which is somewhat at odds with the modern method.

John-Henry
-------------------- Tin andra, tin eroa, tina theon?
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Bob Mc
Mountian Lion
   
Reged: Oct 05 2000
Posts: 1775
Loc: Fort Jones, California, USA
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Roosevelt’s “African Game Trails” as well as “Through The Brazilian Wilderness” are both back in print as hard bound editions. That Brazilian trip just about did him in. He admitted that he was “an old man” when he returned from the expedition.
-------------------- If you can't do it with a dog, it probably ain't worth doin' anyway.
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Mark P
Administrator
 
Reged: Jun 21 2005
Posts: 1091
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
Speaking of the fence, Mark took a pic of me standing in front of it. I was kinda hoping to see it posted.....
Here it is Joe.

This was taken out on Border Rd West of Douglas by Bisbee Junction. The fence has many different designs. Almost like someone was contracted for X amount of miles and each contractor had a different idea on how it should be built.
-------------------- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
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Hilltop
Bishop
 
Reged: Feb 06 2004
Posts: 777
Loc: Zaitseving coyotes
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Hey Nc,
Sorry 'bout the late reply, looks as though you were headed in the right direction.
"The Works of Theodore Roosevelt" was the one I was reading and you can find it on books.google.com; particular interest for me was his chapter on "Wolf Coursing" (especially John Abernathy), which as it turns out ends up being coyote coursing.
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John-Henry
King Hell Dictator
 
Reged: Sep 25 2000
Posts: 4522
Loc: McNeal, AZ
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When I was working for W.S. in Nevada my District Supervisor was a fella named Derril Fry, and Derril had a heck of a collection of books related to dogs and cats; he himself had put many a lion in a tree or up in the rocks with a pack of Kemmer curs that he hunted before he became a Supervisor and was chained to a desk, and before that he'd hunted lions with hounds, so if it had anything to do with that kind of activity Derril had it in his bookshelves.
I spent a weekend at his house that summer for some reason or other, and I amused myself with that bookshelf; one volume in particular was fascinating to me, although I'll be damned if I can remember the name of it, but it dealt with a modern jaguar hunter/outfitter/guide down in South America somewhere or other; the book was published in the 1990's, so the photography was first-rate, and he had a bunch of pictures of dead jaguars with grinning hunters behind them.
He also had some photographs of the country that he hunted, and it looked for all the world like some of those man-made lakes down South with the dead trees sticking up out of the water; the dogs were up to their bellies and the horses up to their knees in water, although there must have been some patches that were considerably thicker, because according to him almost all of those cats in that area would ground-bay (maybe because there was nothing tall enough to climb) and sometimes the hunters would arrive on horseback and be within 25 or 50 yards of the cat and the dogs, and it would take an hour to chop a way in with machetes to get a shot at the animal.
I also was taken by the fact that, like the grizzly, a jaguar will apparently fixate on one particular dog and charge right through the rest of the pack to catch and kill that dog; it didn't sound as though many of his dogs lasted very long, although it didn't sound as though he particularly cared much about what he was running, either; any old canine would do that would follow a scent and bark along the way and make some attempt to hold a bay, and I suppose that it's so wet down there that you don't need any particularly great nose to trail a jaguar (although I suppose that if they swim a river it might get interesting, particularly if they happen to make a U-turn and come out on the same bank that they left from.
All in all it was pretty fascinating; I can't imagine listening to that kind of thing ten yards away and knowing that it was going to take another fifteen minutes until I could cut my way in to help my dogs, but I guess that they have a little bit different attitude when it comes to that.
John-Henry
-------------------- Tin andra, tin eroa, tina theon?
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Mark P
Administrator
 
Reged: Jun 21 2005
Posts: 1091
Loc: Arizona
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Sasha Seimel... Siemel... Siemal... one of those, is the tigre hunter that pops into my mind. He was down in Brazil in the 50's. Came from Latvia or some such place, through the US, then down south. He had a story in a Capstick book and I think I might have one of his other books on my shelf somewhere.
-------------------- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
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Bob Mc
Mountian Lion
   
Reged: Oct 05 2000
Posts: 1775
Loc: Fort Jones, California, USA
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“Tigrero” by Sasha Siemel. Long out of print; he was the spear hunter. Also “Jungle Wife” by Edith Siemel his wife, and “Sashino” by Sasha Siemel Jr. The Siemel family eventually moved to Pennsylvania where Edith was from, and I believe that is where Sasha died after contracting some kind of jungle bug while on a hunting trip back to Brazil. Last I heard, Edith (who was much younger than Sasha) was still alive and living in PA.
-------------------- If you can't do it with a dog, it probably ain't worth doin' anyway.
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varmitbuster
Dervish
Reged: Jul 13 2002
Posts: 122
Loc: Gods country
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I suppose everybody has heard the news by now. The tracking device they put on the jaguar showed it's movements had slowed way down in recent days. Figuring it was sickly, they REcaptured it. Seems as though there is a good possibility the first capture may of stressed the jag enough to cause it some liver damage or something. They put it down.
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Cowboyvon
Druid
  
Reged: May 15 2005
Posts: 163
Loc: Rincon NM
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I have those Dale Lee CD's (or I did have them I loaned then out and I'm waiting to get them back) I guess they were what was used to write the book life of the greatest guide. He tells alot of good stories about hunting Jaguars.. I'll tell you what him and his brothers were something else.. I'll see if I can get them back and if anyone is interested I'll send them to them. There are I think 19 of them .. alot of good listening..
-------------------- Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline.
________________________________________
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John-Henry
King Hell Dictator
 
Reged: Sep 25 2000
Posts: 4522
Loc: McNeal, AZ
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Bob:
As you know, around here the first liar don't have a chance, and by some freakish coincidence the Shasha Siemel museum is in a little old town in Montgomery County, PA, called Green Lane, and back in about 1970 a ten-year old kid was peddling his bike past that old stone building, succumbed to curiosity, offered up a quarter for admission (because that's all that I had; I think that the real tariff was $2.00) and discovered wonders inside that apparently made a powerful enough impression on him that he dreamed that some day he'd be involved with big cats, even if it wasn't while wearing a whatever-the-hell-that-Hercules-looking-one-shoulder-strap thing was and packing a spear so that he could encourage the cat to charge and impale itself.
For as big a planet as it is it's a damned small world sometimes, and it seems that the older that I get the more I see the connections everywhere that I look.
John-Henry
-------------------- Tin andra, tin eroa, tina theon?
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Bob Mc
Mountian Lion
   
Reged: Oct 05 2000
Posts: 1775
Loc: Fort Jones, California, USA
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J-H, I wonder if that museum still exists. Besides hunting big cats with a stick, Sasha Siemel was quite the photographer for his day and under the conditions he had to work in. He was also an avid collector of anything to do with the native people, some of whom were still pretty wild back then. When he moved from Brazil to PA he brought along trunks filled with native Indian artifacts, black and white photographs that he had taken, and some of the first motion picture film ever taken of South American wildlife. He went on a lecture tour and supported himself in that way for quite a few years.
Cowboy, I have those stories by Dale Lee on audio cassette tape, except I am missing one that a machine ate. It’s nice that you have them on CD. Yeah, those guys had the bark on! What tickled me as much as anything was the way Dale told about some of the clients he took out. If a client was a real good sport, he said so. If he was an SOB, he said that too! LOL. I’ve sometimes wondered how some of the clients who fell in the latter category must have felt if they ever read Dale’s book. LMAO!
-------------------- If you can't do it with a dog, it probably ain't worth doin' anyway.
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John-Henry
King Hell Dictator
 
Reged: Sep 25 2000
Posts: 4522
Loc: McNeal, AZ
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No shit:
I started to write an entirely different reply, and then it occurred to me to ask the 'Net, and lo and behold the old man died the same year that I walked into that museum; it's entirely possible that I could have met him face-to-face and spoken with him if I had exerted a little effort, and more to the point if I had really understood who he was back then.
Sasha Siemel Biography
Check out some of those pictures, Robert; can you imagine a cat with a head that size coming down your throat?
And look at the hounds, too; none of them particularly have that "old-timey" look like the Blueticks that you see in the old Lee Brothers photos, which kind of surprises me; those are pretty "modern" looking dogs, especially the three Walkers that he's posing with in one of the photos.
And by the way, the guide who wrote the book that I referred to above hunted the Mato Grosso as well; I guess there must be a healthy population of tigres down there to this day, and I would also guess that they're still eating cattle with reckless abandon.
And finally, isn't it ironic that poor old Macho B successfully spent something like 16 years prowling around the border, and didn't have a lick of trouble until he ran into the Arizona Game and Fish Department and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, who promptly killed him in the name of science?
Fucking idiots; if the general public had any idea of how many animals don't survive that are tranquilized after they're snared or netted or darted in order to take blood and hair samples, plus a tooth to age them, and then fitted with radio collars, there would be an outcry that you could hear from coast to coast.
They REALLY stepped on their dicks this time, though; it's one thing to kill a half-dozen elk or a few Rocky Mountain Bighorns or some other animal like that, but this jaguar is going to light a fire under more than one ass, and somebody might actually lose their job over this one, which would be a minor miracle in and of itself.
John-Henry
-------------------- Tin andra, tin eroa, tina theon?
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Bob Mc
Mountian Lion
   
Reged: Oct 05 2000
Posts: 1775
Loc: Fort Jones, California, USA
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J-H, I don’t see any photos or links to them on the site you give. I Googled Sasha Siemel and found some here. If you’ve read “Tigrero”, you know that his original dogs were Indian dogs; but at least after he moved to PA he began to collect other hounds. At the time Sasha Siemel Jr wrote his book (he was a teenager at the time) their lead dog on that trip was a black and tan. I remember way back when, seeing a couple of ads in Outdoor Life by Siemel when he was organizing hunting trips back to Brazil. He was 1 of a kind, that’s for sure.
-------------------- If you can't do it with a dog, it probably ain't worth doin' anyway.
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Okiebones
American Warrior
  
Reged: Dec 23 2008
Posts: 152
Loc: West Central OK
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It's my understanding that the US Fish and Wildlife service are investigating this incident for criminal liability.
-------------------- aka Aaron Proffitt
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