Dr Fox
Whirling Dervish
Reged: Mar 11 2005
Posts: 41
Loc: Wales, UK
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Hilltop,
I cannot disagree that the .17’s accuracy when downloaded it is something to see, add to that, total loss of recoil, with in-flight entertainment in the scope, its all you could ask for. I have been there and got the T shirt, but my problem was the need for long range kills from one shot! I was just not getting out with accuracy, and stopping power with low velocity ammo, as soon as speed was up 3950fps, trajectory flattened (accuracy) and total penetration ( bang flop) was assured.
With a 100m p.o.i set at 1.25in, the hit is centre at 200m, for day shooting I can play with shot placement, but most of my work is at night, so the shot is into centre of mass. 200m plus at night is not unusual in my line of work, and the .17 Rem is the only rifle that is fit for my task, that’s why it’s the only centre fire I own!
The reference to your rifle was of interest, I use a 24in tube and doing comparisons to your 20in suggested you are not giving a lot away for a loss of 4ins. And I can imagine it’s a dandy to carry, and will be quick to aim.
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Hilltop
Arch Deacon
Reged: Feb 06 2004
Posts: 704
Loc: East of the Pecos
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Doc,
Maybe those Wales reds are quicker than Joe Calzaghe or something; I guess I'm not understanding what your after. I night hunt and actually use a very hot load, not the one I posted (thought that might make a good fox load for someone since people seem to like those slow inny and outy scenarios on fox), and the results are good up close or far with correct shot placement. I don't head shoot unless it's a must, just the same old boiler room shot, night or day.
I guess the main difference would be distance, it's not hard to get them close in the day or night around here, when I say far, 200 yards at night would be far.
What makes it tough to close the gap on those reds in Wales, why are the shots so far, especially at night?
Oh, and the 20 incher is a Sako Vixen in .17/223 which I've managed 3890fps out of with half inch groups. The little baby is a dream to carry, although I don't use her much anymore since the value has been skyrocketing. John-Henry kind of indirectly convinced me to buy her and it was a damn good decision.
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Dr Fox
Whirling Dervish
Reged: Mar 11 2005
Posts: 41
Loc: Wales, UK
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Hilltop,
Hi, Like you I place the pill into the body, usually into shoulder or centre of chest, I have made my views on head shots in an earlier post. I can now see how I have not been too clear, as to why I am tuned into shooting long range. Let me try to put that right!
Our foxes are predators, and at this time of year their prey are new born lambs. The ewe does a pretty good job of fending off the fox, but when she has twins or even triplets it’s a no go, especially when two foxes team against her. So help is needed, this is where I fit in.
Here’s the picture: I arrive at night on foot and check out the field area, I could be looking at a flock of 200 to 300 sheep all in various stages of birthing. A scan with the light (fitted with a green filter) and I have to locate my fella by his eyes, try it when you have got 700 eyes looking back. He could be 20m or 250m away it’s the luck of the draw, now here’s the answer to you question, “ What makes it tough to close the gap on those reds in Wales, why are the shots so far, especially at night?”. If I enter the field area, the sheep will move away from me, it causes two problems, 1. The lambs could become separated from the mother, and if they don’t rejoin, those lambs will starve! 2. As the flock moves they could well startle the fox and he is outa there. A loss either way!
So I can’t get in, and he is not coming out! Time for the magic wand, the .17 Rem with its superb accuracy, I can thread that bullet through the flock, and put him down, the sheep don’t move and I will recover the fox the next day, or then if possible. You will I am sure agree, that my .17 is a specialist tool, and I have not found any other rifle that can do the same job. Last night there were two foxes working a few fields apart, same scenario as above but I was able to recover both, and as promised took some piccys for you all to view.
The pregnant vixen is shown against the .17 to give some scale, the dog fox was measured and was 3ft 8ins tip to nose, both foxes had a skull cap width of 5ins (English measure) fine pair of killers. Both unmarked, and in fine condition. The vixen was shot at 174m, the dog at 220m.
So as you can see my fox is on a mission and if not controlled will do immense damage. I hope this will give you an insight, as to where I am, in the scheme of things.
Doc.
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Dr Fox
Whirling Dervish
Reged: Mar 11 2005
Posts: 41
Loc: Wales, UK
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And
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Dr Fox
Whirling Dervish
Reged: Mar 11 2005
Posts: 41
Loc: Wales, UK
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Hang on I will get it right.
Doc
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Dr Fox
Whirling Dervish
Reged: Mar 11 2005
Posts: 41
Loc: Wales, UK
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Head size
Edited by Dr Fox (Fri Feb 29 2008 09:09 AM)
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Ken (Catskin)
Universal Rabbi of the House
Reged: Nov 24 2000
Posts: 3185
Loc: Redmond, Oregon
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Big big big - like a TX coyote!
<g>
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Bob Mc
Mountian Lion
Reged: Oct 05 2000
Posts: 1703
Loc: Fort Jones, California, USA
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Been following this thread with interest. I know there are some big foxes in that part of the world. I have a video here that was shot in the UK, England I think. Ken may have seen it when he visited here, don’t remember. Makes the little grays around my place look like pups!
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If you can't do it with a dog, it probably ain't worth doin' anyway.
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Hilltop
Arch Deacon
Reged: Feb 06 2004
Posts: 704
Loc: East of the Pecos
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I'm with Bob, these grays around here gotta stand twice to make a shadow, but then again we have coyotes to make up for it.
A couple more brainpickers Doc:
What can you tell me about the green filter versus the red filter?
And, honestly have you tried any calls or squeakers to divert the fox toward you, and what is there reaction in this senario?
Thanks.
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Dr Fox
Whirling Dervish
Reged: Mar 11 2005
Posts: 41
Loc: Wales, UK
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Hi again Hilltop,
I have been asked about filters and the ‘green’ in particular, see what I’ve said, it’s in this index under “Best Remote Caller and Amber Lights”.
As regards calls, we don’t have a ‘season’ on foxes, it’s a control situation all year round, so calling has to fit with that time of year, i.e. summer evenings, mouse calls and also at this time rabbit distress calls can produce results. When the new foxes are first out of the earth, cub calls will gather cubs and adults to where you are set up. I have known folks use every type of call, no matter what the time of year, in the hope of getting a shot! This I have found causes more warning than attraction.
My idea of a call, is to work on the instincts that the four legged predator has, first the chance that he might have found a food source, second, the biggest cause of his demise curiosity, do you have the saying “curiosity killed the cat”, well its true, it sure does. All this preamble is to help me answer your question “have you tried any calls or squeakers to divert the fox toward you” when a fox is in ‘kill a lamb’ mode, any calling to get its attention, will only give cause for alarm, and alert him to my presence, the only call I think would work, would have to sound and smell like afterbirth!! (Look humour, I can be funny)
You should see some foxes amongst birthing sheep, I have had the light on them and waited until it suits me, many times they are totally unaware they are three steps from heaven. Give my regards to all east of the Pecos.
Doc.
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Hilltop
Arch Deacon
Reged: Feb 06 2004
Posts: 704
Loc: East of the Pecos
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Ok Doc, good insight on the light filter; I was off the board for awhile and missed that thread. I have a friend of a friend who swears by the green filter on his LiteForce which is what prompted my inquiry into your experience.
Quote: " Give my regards to all east of the Pecos."
No no, it's pronounced Pay-cuss. 
Thanks much.
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Blueprinted
Whirling Dervish
Reged: Feb 23 2007
Posts: 38
Loc: PA
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I hunt Central Pa also. I am right on the line were if I go to the west I get into greys and to the east I get into reds. We have enough coyotes here to make it interesting. I use my calling guns to shoot ground hogs in the summer and use them as bullet testers. We have used the 17mach4, 17 Fireball, 17Ackley Hornet, a 17-222Ai that would do screaming velocites.
I have settled on a 20gr at 3900-400fps. I shoot foxes like I would shoot a deer with the bow. I shoot lungs, off the big bones. Frontal brisket shot is my favorite. Bang flop, no hide damage. Head shots are iffy and can make for a nasty hole and a not so dead animal. My rifles get a 25gr Berger match load or a 30gr Gold worked up also. POI has been so close that when we get a coyote on the hook, or we make a stand for coyote the heavier bullets come out. I prefer Nagle and Bergers in 20s. I have had some Vmaxs splash on ribs not offen but from time to time, so far so good with the match bullets. YMMV
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Dr Fox
Whirling Dervish
Reged: Mar 11 2005
Posts: 41
Loc: Wales, UK
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Now here’s a thing!! I think I may have discovered a truth, the answer to our debate, as to why the penetration results on foxes differ, on either side of the Atlantic.
In a word animal ‘size’.
After posting pictures and sizes of our foxes, I noted your comments like “small coyote” “big foxes”. So with a larger body mass offering more resistance to the round, I formed the opinion, that what works for me may not hold true for you!
Could this theory be tested? I knew of an area that has feral cats, these cats are about the size of a domestic cat, but are nowhere near our average fox size. From my last post until now, I have visited that area to try to account for one of these critters.
At 95m into centre of mass, the fur damage done was very evident, this with the same round I use for fox work! I do not get exit wounds on foxes as a norm, but I have now thinking about it, seen damage on young or undersized foxes.
The debate, velocity x penetration = fur damage is still open, but I’d like to think this is possibly the answer.
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DanS
Crown Killer
Reged: Sep 14 2003
Posts: 2248
Loc: St. Louis, MO
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Dr. Fox,
Kind of funny that you have the same name as our family practitioner (MD) except her first name is Mary. Anyway, just to compare Missouri animals to what you have, here is a quick link to the Missouri Dept. of Conservation and thier animals sizes, etc...
http://www.mdc.mo.gov/hunt/furbear/index.htm#anchor72237
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If it's not worth doing, then it's certainly not worth doing right.
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disco1946
Mouse Dipper
Reged: Jul 01 2007
Posts: 675
Loc: Mesa, Arizona
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Dan,
If anyone belongs on the Raw Beginner Post, It's you dude.  
Dave
Seriously, am I the only one getting excited about 2009 Rondy?
Seems like last year at this time the board was alive with Roll call and ideas and suggestions.
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Friends don't let Friends shoot Rugers
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DanS
Crown Killer
Reged: Sep 14 2003
Posts: 2248
Loc: St. Louis, MO
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Heck yea, I'm getting excited, If not for anything else, but to see what bazaar item your going to put into your mouth.
I heard rumor of a jalepeno laced coyote tar-tar.
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If it's not worth doing, then it's certainly not worth doing right.
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Dr Fox
Whirling Dervish
Reged: Mar 11 2005
Posts: 41
Loc: Wales, UK
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Thanks for that link Dan, gave me a good insight in to a lot of species and their sizes, and yes it does appear your red is a lot smaller than ours.
That does lend to ballistic and bullet head design debate, in respect of fur damage on the smaler animal.
Also your badger is much smaller, our beast is a big lump of a creature, and if you hit him in your car, he WILL wreck the front of it!
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