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John-HenryAdministrator
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Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882490 - Fri Apr 08 2005 06:15 PM

I've been steering clear of political stuff here on the Board, but I think that everyone, particularly you knee-jerk Republican supporters, ought to take a careful look at this article.

It's written by Congressman Ron Paul, who (remarkably, considering what he's written) is a Republican from Texas, the same great State that gave us Tom "The Hammer " Delay.

I'm frankly astonished; there's a pretty popular school of thought that suggests that all Congressmen on both sides of the aisle are pimps, tramps, and thieves, but certainly it's a little easier to discern those attributes in the Republicans, possibly because they're so good at "message discipline."

I'm sure that Representative Paul is going to incur the wrath of Delay and Co., but I'd vote for this guy for anything that he cared to run for, even if I am chary of his Party affiliation, simply because he's not afraid to open his mouth and tell the simple truth.

John-Henry

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"Whenever the administration is challenged regarding the success of the Iraq war, or regarding the false information used to justify the war, the retort is: "Aren't the people of Iraq better off?" The insinuation is that anyone who expresses any reservations about supporting the war is an apologist for Saddam Hussein and every ruthless act he ever committed. The short answer to the question of whether the Iraqis are better off is that it's too early to declare, "Mission Accomplished." But more importantly, we should be asking if the mission was ever justified or legitimate. Is it legitimate to justify an action that some claim yielded good results, if the means used to achieve them are illegitimate? Do the ends justify the means?

The information Congress was given prior to the war was false. There were no weapons of mass destruction; the Iraqis did not participate in the 9/11 attacks; Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were enemies and did not conspire against the United States; our security was not threatened; we were not welcomed by cheering Iraqi crowds as we were told; and Iraqi oil has not paid any of the bills. Congress failed to declare war, but instead passed a wishy-washy resolution citing UN resolutions as justification for our invasion. After the fact, we're now told the real reason for the Iraq invasion was to spread democracy, and that the Iraqis are better off. Anyone who questions the war risks being accused of supporting Saddam Hussein, disapproving of democracy, or "supporting terrorists." It's implied that lack of enthusiasm for the war means one is not patriotic and doesn't support the troops. In other words, one must march lockstep with the consensus or be ostracized.

However, conceding that the world is better off without Saddam Hussein is a far cry from endorsing the foreign policy of our own government that led to the regime change. In time it will become clear to everyone that support for the policies of preemptive war and interventionist nation-building will have much greater significance than the removal of Saddam Hussein itself. The interventionist policy should be scrutinized more carefully than the purported benefits of Saddam Hussein's removal from power. The real question ought to be: "Are we better off with a foreign policy that promotes regime change while justifying war with false information?" Shifting the stated goals as events unravel should not satisfy those who believe war must be a last resort used only when our national security is threatened.

How much better off are the Iraqi people? Hundreds of thousands of former inhabitants of Fallujah are not better off with their city flattened and their homes destroyed. Hundreds of thousands are not better off living with foreign soldiers patrolling their street, curfews, and the loss of basic utilities. One hundred thousand dead Iraqis, as estimated by the Lancet medical journal, certainly are not better off. Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave.

Praise for the recent election in Iraq has silenced many critics of the war. Yet the election was held under martial law implemented by a foreign power, mirroring conditions we rightfully condemned as a farce when carried out in the old Soviet system and more recently in Lebanon. Why is it that what is good for the goose isn't always good for the gander?

Our government fails to recognize that legitimate elections are the consequence of freedom, and that an artificial election does not create freedom. In our own history we note that freedom was achieved first and elections followed – not the other way around.

One news report claimed that the Sh'iites actually received 56 percent of the vote, but such an outcome couldn't be allowed for fear of a theocracy forming. This reminds us of the statement made months ago by Secretary Rumsfeld when asked about a Shi'ite theocracy emerging from a majority democratic vote, and he assured us that would not happen. Democracy, we know, is messy and needs tidying up a bit when we don't like the results.

Some have described Baghdad, and especially the Green Zone, as being surrounded by unmanageable territory. The highways in and out of Baghdad are not yet secured. Many anticipate a civil war will break out sometime soon in Iraq; some claim it's already underway.

We have seen none of the promised oil production that was supposed to provide grateful Iraqis with the means to repay us for the hundreds of billions that American taxpayers have spent on the war. Some have justified our continuous presence in the Persian Gulf since 1990 because of a need to protect "our" oil. Yet now that Saddam Hussein is gone, and the occupation supposedly is a great success, gasoline at the pumps is reaching record highs approaching $3 per gallon.

Though the Iraqi election has come and gone, there still is no government in place, and the next election– supposedly the real one– is not likely to take place on time. Do the American people have any idea who really won the dubious election at all?

The oil-for-food scandal under Saddam Hussein has been replaced by corruption in the distribution of U.S. funds to rebuild Iraq. Already there is an admitted $9 billion discrepancy in the accounting of these funds. The over-billing by Halliburton is no secret, but the process has not changed.

The whole process is corrupt. It just doesn't make sense to most Americans to see their tax dollars used to fight an unnecessary and unjustified war. First they see American bombs destroying a country, and then American taxpayers are required to rebuild it. Today, it's easier to get funding to rebuild infrastructure in Iraq than to build a bridge in the United States. Indeed, we cut the Army Corps of Engineers' budget and operate on the cheap with our veterans as the expenditures in Iraq skyrocket.

One question the war promoters don't want to hear asked, because they don't want to face up to the answer, is this: "Are Christian Iraqis better off today since we decided to build a new Iraq through force of arms?" The answer is plainly no.

Sure, there are only 800,000 Christians living in Iraq, but under Saddam Hussein they were free to practice their religion. Tariq Aziz, a Christian, served in Saddam Hussein's cabinet as foreign minister– something that would never happen in Saudi Arabia, Israel, or any other Middle Eastern country. Today, the Christian churches in Iraq are under attack and Christians are no longer safe. Many Christians have been forced to flee Iraq and migrate to Syria. It's strange that the human rights advocates in the U.S. Congress have expressed no concern for the persecution now going on against Christians in Iraq. Both the Sunni and the Shi'ite Muslims support the attacks on Christians. In fact, persecuting Christians is one of the few areas in which they agree – the other being the removal of all foreign forces from Iraqi soil.

Considering the death, destruction, and continual chaos in Iraq, it's difficult to accept the blanket statement that the Iraqis all feel much better off with the U.S. in control rather than Saddam Hussein. Security in the streets and criminal violence are not anywhere near being under control.

But there's another question that is equally important: "Are the American people better off because of the Iraq war?"

One thing's for sure: the 1,500-plus dead American soldiers aren't better off. The nearly 20,000 severely injured or sickened American troops are not better off. The families, the wives, the husbands, children, parents, and friends of those who lost so much are not better off.

The families and the 40,000 troops who were forced to reenlist against their will – a de facto draft – are not feeling better off. They believe they have been deceived by their enlistment agreements.

The American taxpayers are not better off having spent over $200 billion to pursue this war, with billions yet to be spent. The victims of the inflation that always accompanies a guns-and-butter policy are already getting a dose of what will become much worse.

Are our relationships with the rest of the world better off? I'd say no. Because of the war, our alliances with the Europeans are weaker than ever. The anti-American hatred among a growing number of Muslims around the world is greater than ever. This makes terrorist attacks more likely than they were before the invasion. Al-Qaeda recruiting has accelerated. Iraq is being used as a training ground for al-Qaeda terrorists, which it never was under Hussein's rule. So, as our military recruitment efforts suffer, Osama bin Laden benefits by attracting more terrorist volunteers.

Oil was approximately $27 a barrel before the war, now it's more than twice that. I wonder who benefits from this?

Because of the war, fewer dollars are available for real national security and the defense of this country. Military spending is up, but the way the money is spent distracts from true national defense and further undermines our credibility around the world.

The ongoing war's lack of success has played a key role in diminishing morale in our military services. Recruitment is sharply down, and most branches face shortages of troops. Many young Americans rightly fear a coming draft – which will be required if we do not reassess and change the unrealistic goals of our foreign policy.

The appropriations for the war are essentially off-budget and obscured, but contribute nonetheless to the runaway deficit and increase in the national debt. If these trends persist, inflation with economic stagnation will be the inevitable consequences of a misdirected policy.

One of the most significant consequences in times of war that we ought to be concerned about is the inevitable loss of personal liberty. Too often in the patriotic nationalism that accompanies armed conflict, regardless of the cause, there is a willingness to sacrifice personal freedoms in pursuit of victory. The real irony is that we are told we go hither and yon to fight for freedom and our Constitution, while carelessly sacrificing the very freedoms here at home we're supposed to be fighting for. It makes no sense.

This willingness to give up hard-fought personal liberties has been especially noticeable in the atmosphere of the post-September 11th war on terrorism. Security has replaced liberty as our main political goal, damaging the American spirit. Sadly, the whole process is done in the name of patriotism and in a spirit of growing militant nationalism.

These attitudes and fears surrounding the 9/11 tragedy, and our eagerness to go to war in the Middle East against countries not responsible for the attacks, have allowed a callousness to develop in our national psyche that justifies torture and rejects due process of law for those who are suspects and not convicted criminals.

We have come to accept preemptive war as necessary, Constitutional, and morally justifiable. Starting a war without a proper declaration is now of no concern to most Americans or the U.S. Congress. Let's hope and pray the rumors of an attack on Iran in June by U.S. Armed Forces are wrong.

A large segment of the Christian community and its leadership think nothing of rationalizing war in the name of a religion that prides itself on the teachings of the Prince of Peace, who instructed us that blessed are the peacemakers – not the warmongers.

We casually accept our role as world policeman, and believe we have a moral obligation to practice nation building in our image regardless of the number of people who die in the process.

We have lost our way by rejecting the beliefs that made our country great. We no longer trust in trade, friendship, peace, the Constitution, and the principle of neutrality while avoiding entangling alliances with the rest of the world. Spreading the message of hope and freedom by setting an example for the world has been replaced by a belief that use of armed might is the only practical tool to influence the world – and we have accepted, as the only superpower, the principle of initiating war against others.

In the process, Congress and the people have endorsed a usurpation of their own authority, generously delivered to the executive and judicial branches – not to mention international government bodies. The concept of national sovereignty is now seen as an issue that concerns only the fringe in our society.

Protection of life and liberty must once again become the issue that drives political thought in this country. If this goal is replaced by an effort to promote world government, use force to plan the economy, regulate the people, and police the world, against the voluntary desires of the people, it can be done only with the establishment of a totalitarian state. There's no need for that. It's up to Congress and the American people to decide our fate, and there is still time to correct our mistakes."

[This message has been edited by John-Henry (edited 04-08-2005).]


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Trapper John
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882491 - Fri Apr 08 2005 09:35 PM

Ron Paul is a great leader.Its unfortunate there arnt more like him.To many prostitutes have gained access to the republican party,but the demacrats are full bent on rewrighting our constitution by stacking the courts with little Hitlers.I am no knee jerk republican.The R party sure needs reforming,but the dems are so far off I see no hope in them at all.The only answer I see is for good men to run and win.With the bulk of the populas believing the liberal media there isnt much hope of that.As far as Iraq goes we may all have different opinions in a few years.I sure have no crystal ball.

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John-HenryAdministrator
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882492 - Sat Apr 09 2005 06:09 AM

There's no point in discussing the relative merits of the Democrats vs. the Republicans here, because not too many people know enough about the policies or agendas of either one to comment intelligently on the whole thing.

I repeat, though; Ron Paul is an astonishing man, and I'll be reading a lot more about him in the next few days.

John-Henry


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rsmac
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882493 - Sat Apr 09 2005 05:55 PM

John-Henry; what a clear picture of our current policy. Where did America begin to go wrong? Exporting democracy has never worked, it didn't work in VietNam or any other place we have invaded in the last 50 years or so. Where does democracy come from, whats its roots and why does it remove itself from a people at a certain place in time? Our nation surely needs rebuilding. I fear our current form of government will continue to fail whether Repub. or Demo. What we truly need is more of these kind of truth speaking leaders. Men who will say what they believe and live the proof. Great article!

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Booger
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882494 - Sun Apr 10 2005 01:26 PM

I live in his district and voted for him.

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seventeen
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882495 - Sun Apr 10 2005 08:48 PM

I guess when you pay the bills for this forum you can start the political forum up, and shut it down whenever you see something that "you" agree with?

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draculasbrother
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882496 - Mon Apr 11 2005 08:43 AM

Yep, Seems imminently fair to me.
Drac


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CALOK1
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882497 - Mon Apr 11 2005 09:38 AM

Your right Drac. That's the way it is and that's the way it SHOULD be.

------------------
CAL


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Andy
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882498 - Mon Apr 11 2005 07:30 PM

I like it like that.

This board is not a democracy. Never proclaimed to be. You aint gotta like it and you aint gotta stay.

Serenity is a click away.



Andy


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VladViscious
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882499 - Mon Apr 11 2005 07:44 PM

This board and the internet in general are like a big salad bar. Take what you like leave the rest. His Site, his opinion. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I don't want to listen to his side. I may learn something. I just hope that he is willing to listen to the other side as well cause as improbable as it may be he could learn a thing or two as well. If democracy did not allow for differing opinions how could we have had a constitution in 11 years?
It would have taken about 11 minutes.


Vlad


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Hodgen
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882500 - Tue Apr 12 2005 04:12 PM

Giggle

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John-HenryAdministrator
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882501 - Tue Apr 12 2005 04:58 PM

Hey, Hodge:

You've been quiet lately; everything good in your little World?

John-Henry


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Hodgen
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882502 - Wed Apr 13 2005 12:26 PM

Hi Buddy!!!

Everything is pretty much the same in my little world. Working harder than ever, and still losing ground money-wise. The last 5 years under this administration has been brutal on the working man. Hasn't been this bad since....well....since the last time we had Republicans in office. I guess one could say we have been pushed back about 20 years.

I will getting a break in a few weeks though. I am heading back out to California to get my prescriptions filled , and to spend a few days popping some ground squirrels. At least Georgie and the boys havn't fucked that up yet. But give them time I guess.


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seventeen
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882503 - Wed Apr 13 2005 02:52 PM

Thanks Andy, I didn't know that........

CLICK..


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JDTHEE
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882504 - Wed Apr 13 2005 11:03 PM

It`s not all doom & gloom, after all the Bush administration will always be able to claim that they were in power when silicone boobies were made legal agian.

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Jason


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Trapper John
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882505 - Thu Apr 14 2005 09:04 PM

This economy is not Bushs fault.If you remember,the last 6 months of Clintons term saw the economy going south big time.If you take an econ course youl learn that this huge economy takes more than presidents term to move up or down.Clinton was actualy reaping the benifits of the Reagan years.The average joe has no idea how our economy works,but one thing everyone should get straight is thAT TAX CUTS lead to a boombing economy.It takes years however for the impact to be felt.Anyone blaming a president for a bad economy after just four years is just buying a bunch of liberal propaganda.you can acuratly thank Bush senior and Clinton and thier combined 1 trillion dollar tax increase for your present discomfort.George Ws. tax cuts will show up in your wallet about the time the next tax hungry liberal gets into office and starts bgagging about an economy he has had nothing to do with.

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Hodgen
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882506 - Fri Apr 15 2005 12:29 PM

Well considering my working life consisted of 8 years of Reagan, 4 years of Daddy Bush, 8 years of Clinton, and now just about 5 years of Georgie (with party majority). That makes the score 17 to 8 in favor of republicans. So it's safe to say just about anything fucked up in my world, I'd say they can take credit for.

Now we'll go into these great tax cuts and other great improvements in recent years. Since I have seen the rebate check and decreased income tax compliments of Georgie. My property taxes have almost doubled due to lack of federal funding to the state. Along with increased taxes on tobacco and fuel. So off the top of my head, I can safely say his tax cuts cost me about 3 times what he saved me. And if I dare to say, that's a "conservative" estimate.


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mpol777
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882507 - Fri Apr 15 2005 01:53 PM

All the fucked up things in my world are on me. Control begets responsibility and I want to be in control of my life.

No matter how bad I can screw things up.


Mark


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Hodgen
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882508 - Fri Apr 15 2005 03:28 PM

We lost control about 4 1/2 years ago.
One can't even die in peace these days.
The government even sticks its nose in that.


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John-HenryAdministrator
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882509 - Fri Apr 15 2005 04:58 PM

We lost control a long time before that; one of the only rays of light in the darkness is a guy like Ron Paul, who actually stands up and comments without a fork in his tongue.

I've already e-mailed his office, and I would suggest that you do the same; it may be another bait and switch, but for the moment I'm satisfied that there might still be an honest man in Congress.

John-Henry


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rsmac
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882510 - Fri Apr 15 2005 09:34 PM

Have to agree with Hogedon on this one. Been working all my life and have never seen such a mean economy for the working man. Everyday something goes away in the form of wages, benefits, and human dignity. The average american cannot compete with the flood of illegals coming into our land. People who do not pay any taxes other than sales tax. They pay no SSI or property taxes and collect from the state every benifit free for medical and social services and their not Americans and really don't want to be Americans. The politicians and big bussiness want their cheap labor and have sold us for a song. Both dems, and the replicans are only out for big interests,$$$. There is not enough moral fabric left in this land to make a thong for the skinnest girl you ever saw.

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Trapper John
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882511 - Sat Apr 16 2005 08:02 PM

You have only to look back to 1963 when god was kicked out of schools,then the rebellion of the 60s,and now the fight to remove the ten comandments from uor nation.Which will require sandblasting the walls of our nations supreme court building.A nation that forgets God will surely falter.Our founders warned of us this,but since they no longer teach true american history,no one knows the wisdom of the men who wrote our contstitution.Somehow I dont think this forum is the place for a discusion on theology and the merits of holy living.On the bright side, after we have been reduced to third world status and our dollar is no longer king,we will probably see the next fur boom.Dont laugh.The old saying is that every generation has a fur boom.When China is full of millionairs and other countries arnet fighting the desparity of thier dollar to ours,the man who can put up fur just might make more than the man lucky enough to have a slave labor job.

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Hodgen
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882512 - Sat Apr 16 2005 09:18 PM

I was watching a movie the other day, and heard an intresting quote. They were discussing mythology, and I think it went something like this.

"Mythology brings people together, where as religion pits people against other people".

I must confess to not knowing jack shit about mythology, but I do know a shit house full of people died in the name of religion.

About the only thing I know about my religion. Is I got a couple weeks to run amuck and sin like hell. At least until they pick a new pope.


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Trapper John
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882513 - Sun Apr 17 2005 06:50 PM

Your right, religion has caused untold deaths. That is why Jesus Christ went against the religious leaders of his day. Religion is bondage. Galatians ch.5 vr.1 says, “It was for freedom that Christ set us free, therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.” Ephesians ch.2 vs. 8-9 says, “for by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works lest anyone should boast." I quit using the word “Christian” because it has been so corrupted by so many. Think about the statement in the bible that the devil comes to deceive the whole world. What better way than to Imitate Christ and make a mockery of the real teachings of Christ. Much of the church today is so far out of line with the truth of scripture that it isn’t funny. Because of this millions of people mock Christ and want nothing to do with God. Score one for the devil. It’s amazing to me that although the gospel of John is only 29 pages long, so few have ever read it. Gospel means “good news.” In those short pages are the story of Christ, why he came, what he taught, and how to be saved. Did you know this salvation has nothing to do with baptism or sacraments or priestly confessions? 1st Timothy ch.2 vr.5 clearly tells us, "For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." That means you do business with God personally, No preacher or priest can absolve sin. Read those 29 pages of John and see for yourself.

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John-HenryAdministrator
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882514 - Mon Apr 18 2005 11:28 AM

[QUOTE]A nation that forgets God will surely falter. Our founders warned of us this, but since they no longer teach true american history, no one knows the wisdom of the men who wrote our contstitution.[/QUOTE]

Wow. I'm pretty sure that I know more about the Founding Fathers than you do, and I'm also pretty sure that they didn't have any intention of creating a Christian Theocracy.

If you read the (voluminous) writings of Madison, Franklin, Hamilton, Jay, Jefferson, and Adams, just to name a few, you'll see that they were very aware of the danger of religious fanaticism dominating secular Government, and they strove mightily to ensure that wouldn't happen under our Constitution.

This Nation isn't about Christianity, despite the ravings of the Born-Again factions that seek to influence Governmental policy; this Nation is about FREEDOM, and particularly individual freedom of action and choice without Governmental intervention.

Freedom to worship as you chose, freedom to NOT worship as you chose; freedom to sell your pussy on the street for money, freedom to have an abortion, freedom to read and write and watch "sinful" material, freedom to divorce, freedom to gamble, freedom to stand on a soap box on the corner and preach the Gospel or the Koran or the Upanishads, freedom to drug and drink and fornicate and swear, freedom to live and freedom to die WITHOUT some modern-day Puritan looking to meddle in your business when he can't even mind his own.

It's ironic that anyone who really understands the Constitution would fight to the death to preserve the rights of Christians to worship as they choose, while those same Christians (or at least the Fundamentalist Activist flavor) seek to undermine the foundations of the same document any time that they're confronted with something that they find distasteful or at odds with their creed. If I live to be a hundred years old I'll never understand what you think gives you the "right" to try and jam YOUR favored myth down MY throat; you don't see anyone raising hell because there aren't nymphs and fauns on the courthouse walls, or because the money doesn't say "One Nation Under Valhalla," do you?

I feel very much the same about the Fundamentalists as I do about the Klan; if the Constitution didn't give you the right to express your divisive and bigoted views I'd line you all up and shoot you where you stand. The Constitution DOES in fact give you that right, though, but it emphatically DOESN'T give you the right to impose your views through Government on the rest of the American people.

And now you've got a President who boasts of his personal relationship with "God;" if he's living according to the teachings of Christ I'm the fucking Buddha.

John-Henry

p.s. One of my favorite pieces of political scuttlebutt right now is the persistent rumor that before his death Pope John Paul II repeatedly stated his conviction that George W. Bush was in fact the foretold Antichrist.



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Hodgen
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Posts: 496
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882515 - Mon Apr 18 2005 02:07 PM

Hey Buddha! <giggle>

I saw the film clip of Tom Delay at the NRA convention holding up his musket. Damn, I almost got a shiver run down my spine. I almost wanted to dry out my NRA membership card I pissed on a few weeks back.

On a side note. I just got done watching some liberal, leftist, pinko, commie documentary, that any self serving watcher of FOX News would discount as rhetoric and conspiracy. It was titled "In Plane Site".
Some pretty interesting stuff to say the least.

Gotta run; someones knocking at my door. I suspect it might be Gonzalez wanting to confiscate my dvd player.


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John-HenryAdministrator
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882516 - Mon Apr 18 2005 04:35 PM

Arrggh:

It just makes me nuts; there are people right here in this House who are men of strong personal religious conviction, and I respect and admire them on a personal level, in addition to vociferously defending their rights as human beings and as Americans to adhere to those views.

I wouldn't DREAM of trying to force my own personal beliefs on those men; the relationship between a man and his God is an intensely personal and peculiar one, and matters of faith aren't amenable to intellectual discourse in the first place.

But by the same token it makes me quite mad when someone tries to force that personal and peculiar belief down MY throat, particularly when they seek to do it through Governmental coercion; the separation of Church and State is one of the underpinnings of the United States Constitution, and anyone who seeks to violate that separation, in my estimation, ought to be hung or shot as a traitor to this Country as an object lesson to the rest of their co-religionists who seek to justify their actions through an appeal to a "Higher Power" than the one that presently governs our Nation.

Absolute freedom OF Religion in the United States, and equally absolute freedom FROM Religion; that's the foundation that this Country was built on, and that's the foundation that everything else ought to properly proceed from.

"Moral" Majority notwithstanding, or any other aggregation of whack jobs who thinks that the Country ought to run according to their lights.

John-Henry


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seventeen
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882517 - Mon Apr 18 2005 07:21 PM

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to a Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, Connecticut, January 1, 1802

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"I have tried to live my life so that my family would love me and my friends respect me. The others can do whatever the hell they please."

John Wayne


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Trapper John
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882518 - Mon Apr 18 2005 08:51 PM

There is a huge problem with revisionist history, and many who are misled by it, simply fail to look at the origins rather than revisions. Here are just a few of our founders quotes.

Reverend Jonas Clark was the "parson" of a church in a small town called Lexington. In his church parking lot, only a few feet from the church parsonage, the "shot heard around the world" was fired. The people that were killed were members of his congregation. Clark looked down with great anguish at the bodies of those who had died and made this statement: "From this day will be dated the liberty of the world." It began in a church. It began with a pastor that was part of the "Black Regiment" because of the black robes they wore. These pastors preached resounding sermons that resonated throughout New England about the evils of tyranny and the importance of liberty.
Revolutionary leaders were devout men who could not have been more empathic in their determination that our national policy rested on Scriptural foundation. Of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 52 were Orthodox Christians.

After signing the Declaration of Independence, Samuel Adams, who was called the firebrand of the American Revolution, affirmed his obedience to God by stating, "We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom alone men ought to be obedient. From the rising to the setting of the sun may His kingdom come."
Reverend Doctor John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration of Independence, member of the Continental Congress, described as the "man who shaped the man that shaped America" said, "God grant that in America true religion and civil liberty may be inseparable . . . ." Reverend Witherspoon was also responsible for publishing two American editions of the Bible.
Benjamin Franklin, who signed the Declaration and was often identified as a deist in his younger years, delivered his most famous speech on June 28, 1787, at the age of eighty-one. He said, "I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it."

John Hancock, president of the Continental Congress, said, "Let us humbly commit our righteous cause to the great Lord of the Universe."
Governor Morris, who wrote the Constitution in 1787, and wrote in 1790 and in 1791, two commentaries on the Constitution said, "Religion is the solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man toward God."
William Paterson, a signer of the Constitution, closed his speeches with Proverbs 29:2: "When the righteous rule, the people rejoice. When the wicked rule, the people groan."


Patrick Henry, a Christian patriot, golden tongued orator of the Revolutionary period, and the only U.S. Governor to be elected and reelected five times said in a celebrated speech before the Revolutionary War, "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" Henry also said, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospels of Jesus Christ."

You are correct J.H. that this country was founded on freedom of religion.Could you tell me were in the constitution seperation of church and state appears? There is an old saying "tell a lie often enough and people will believe it" What the constitution gaurentees is that the state will not establish a state religion. Jeffersons letter to the danbury baptist's was written to asure them of this fact. That letter however is not a part of our constitution,and has been taken out of context by the revisionists. In my last post I wasnt trying to cram anything down anyones throat. I was merely printing what the bible has to say about faith. I must say John Henry Im impressed with your fairness in debate.


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JDTHEE
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Re: Politics, but an astonishing article
      #1882519 - Mon Apr 18 2005 08:58 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John-Henry:


aggregation of whack jobs who thinks that the Country ought to run according to their lights.

[/QUOTE]

<chuckle> Not to stray too far off course here but doesn`t that statement describe every administration that has been in power in the U.S. or any of the special interest groups that put them there? Hee hee, religious "fanatics" are only the tip of the iceberg, eh.

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Jason


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